New Natural Wonders
- Thread starter turingmachine
- Start date
The names are just one thing... Here you could say "Ok, shows some kind of immaturity", but the values....
Both Fountain of Youth as well as El Dorado appear to be game-breaking when luck hits you and they are placed next to your spawning area.
Have them on a bigger map where you're left alone for the first turns, and both will give you options the other nations just don't have.
yeah , i intend name changing and stat changing if they are so powerfull...but i didnt test them atm
So after the initial slew of natural wonders there are no places in the world as beautiful or wondrous as those that we must have things as ridiculous as the Fountain of Youth?
Patch excellently made, flavour less than sastisfactory... like a perfect Salmon mousse... knowing full well I hate Salmon...
Patch excellently made, flavour less than sastisfactory... like a perfect Salmon mousse... knowing full well I hate Salmon...
CornPlanter
Emperor
It certainly appears so.
I'm looking forward to the 2 new Civilizations in the next DLC: Orks and Elves. I wonder what sorts of cheesy stuff they are gonna get. 4 tiles range for Archers? Unique Unit "Roflstompers"? The sky is the limit.
Baleur
Prince
Know when i made that thread about Sid's speech about how you cannot reward the player enough?
WOAH did they go overboard with the 180 change to listen to that speech.
Just.... Come on. If you reward the player and hand out free goodies for NO reason, the player wont be happy.. Its just like, well, whats the point of playing the game or making a strategy if a dumb luck incident could give you 3 hanging gardens and infinite +50% heal promotions for all your units?
Rewarding the player for progress and persistance is one thing (the mmo's got that right, and lately even fps games and rts games).
But being like "hey stupid, here! have 500 gold, click button to win" defeats the purpose of playing the game in the first place.
Games are meant to be played, not to be given a victory screen.
Ofc i'm exagerrating alot here, but the point is that this is the kind of thing that moves in the wrong direction when so much else in the patch moved in the right direction..
Even if its just 2 natural wonders, i feel i must explain why it is the wrong direction.
And whats wrong with natural wonders that do moderate small-bonus things?
Niagara Falls +3 food (idk, fertility?).
The Alps +3 production (idk, stone for your stonehenge?)
The Dead Sea -2 food +4 culture (idk, religious significance?)
Valley of The Kings +2 gold +2 culture (idk, excavations?)
Would that be so hard to come up with? Something that exists irl and has moderate bonuses that rather creates more unique areas to find than a flat out bum-donation?
WOAH did they go overboard with the 180 change to listen to that speech.
Just.... Come on. If you reward the player and hand out free goodies for NO reason, the player wont be happy.. Its just like, well, whats the point of playing the game or making a strategy if a dumb luck incident could give you 3 hanging gardens and infinite +50% heal promotions for all your units?
Rewarding the player for progress and persistance is one thing (the mmo's got that right, and lately even fps games and rts games).
But being like "hey stupid, here! have 500 gold, click button to win" defeats the purpose of playing the game in the first place.
Games are meant to be played, not to be given a victory screen.
Ofc i'm exagerrating alot here, but the point is that this is the kind of thing that moves in the wrong direction when so much else in the patch moved in the right direction..
Even if its just 2 natural wonders, i feel i must explain why it is the wrong direction.
And whats wrong with natural wonders that do moderate small-bonus things?
Niagara Falls +3 food (idk, fertility?).
The Alps +3 production (idk, stone for your stonehenge?)
The Dead Sea -2 food +4 culture (idk, religious significance?)
Valley of The Kings +2 gold +2 culture (idk, excavations?)
Would that be so hard to come up with? Something that exists irl and has moderate bonuses that rather creates more unique areas to find than a flat out bum-donation?
its just 500 gold the op
5 culture is the yield and you have to pay in food for it which is a "trade" maybe good but surely not op
I wouldn't even call it a 'reward' really. 'Reward' assumes that there is something you have done that you are gaining the benefit of. Completely random bonuses are just that; bonuses. It's no more a 'reward' than winning the lottery is.
LOL, and people complained about Civ4-Ragnar 
One of the podcasts at civilization5.com is named "A believable world", where does FoY fit in there? Name is a joke, effect is game breaking. Now I'm just waiting for dowsing to be included as a tech
One of the podcasts at civilization5.com is named "A believable world", where does FoY fit in there? Name is a joke, effect is game breaking. Now I'm just waiting for dowsing to be included as a tech
A few points:
1) Both El Dorado and Fountain of Youth had a real effect on human history in that lots of people put a lot of effort into looking for both. Just because they never found them doesn't mean they don't exist (even today) and should be erased from history. The "what if" they were found approach that civ is taking is no different than the "what if" of Egypt (or any other civ) surviving to launch a space ship to another solar system 6000 years later.
2) The new natural wonders are rare in regular games. Fountain of Youth is 10x as rare as the normal ones. Given that rarity, how few Natural Wonders are on each map and how many civs are on each map, how often is it that a new game will spawn one right in your border or nearby? Once every 40 or 50 games? more?
3) Yes the bonuses are powerful. Please consider that most of the times you see them, either the AI is going to own them or you will have to fight to control them. Another poster in another thread mentioned how he saw Fountain of Youth, pushed to settle it and an all-out-war broke out with the Iroquois who were near it. That's a game defining tile right there, which imo sounds really cool! That's something that civ has always lacked. Does the AI prioritize these? We don't know. I think those of you turning them off before you even try them just because they don't fit into your version of what's "believable" are really missing out on a lot of fun (which is the point of games after all).
4) The bonuses aren't 'you win' buttons. That's a big exaggeration, but these forums seem filled with exaggeration passed on as fact. If that's the case are they also "you lose" buttons when the AI gets them, which it will the vast majority of the time when they do happen to appear?
5) Opportunity costs. Given the amount of war/defense that's needed for these wonders, how much is being spent just to hold onto them, or acquire them? That needs to be factored against their bonus.
6) People constantly ask for better tiles, something to give founding cities meaning beyond the +1food cows/sheep. Well... here it is, in the extreme. This is sure to spice up games of civ.
edit: 8 years of lurking destroyed. ;(
1) Both El Dorado and Fountain of Youth had a real effect on human history in that lots of people put a lot of effort into looking for both. Just because they never found them doesn't mean they don't exist (even today) and should be erased from history. The "what if" they were found approach that civ is taking is no different than the "what if" of Egypt (or any other civ) surviving to launch a space ship to another solar system 6000 years later.
2) The new natural wonders are rare in regular games. Fountain of Youth is 10x as rare as the normal ones. Given that rarity, how few Natural Wonders are on each map and how many civs are on each map, how often is it that a new game will spawn one right in your border or nearby? Once every 40 or 50 games? more?
3) Yes the bonuses are powerful. Please consider that most of the times you see them, either the AI is going to own them or you will have to fight to control them. Another poster in another thread mentioned how he saw Fountain of Youth, pushed to settle it and an all-out-war broke out with the Iroquois who were near it. That's a game defining tile right there, which imo sounds really cool! That's something that civ has always lacked. Does the AI prioritize these? We don't know. I think those of you turning them off before you even try them just because they don't fit into your version of what's "believable" are really missing out on a lot of fun (which is the point of games after all).
4) The bonuses aren't 'you win' buttons. That's a big exaggeration, but these forums seem filled with exaggeration passed on as fact. If that's the case are they also "you lose" buttons when the AI gets them, which it will the vast majority of the time when they do happen to appear?
5) Opportunity costs. Given the amount of war/defense that's needed for these wonders, how much is being spent just to hold onto them, or acquire them? That needs to be factored against their bonus.
6) People constantly ask for better tiles, something to give founding cities meaning beyond the +1food cows/sheep. Well... here it is, in the extreme. This is sure to spice up games of civ.
edit: 8 years of lurking destroyed. ;(
Eh, they pretty much are you win buttons, though. 500 gold? Like starting with 2 cities. Fountain of youth next to your lands and deny open borders? May as well restart it'll be so easy. Consider that FoY completely nullifies all ICS nerfs it's happiness is so high.
If you are winning a game simply because you got 500g then you need to bump up the difficulty several levels.
Maybe if this one change was the only thing included in the patch it MIGHT be a "you win" button but let's not forget the game is much more difficult now and will get much more difficult in subsequent patches.
How is this any stronger than starting with 3 luxuries within your borders than selling one on turn 20 for 300g? Is that a 60% chance of winning the game?
Maybe if this one change was the only thing included in the patch it MIGHT be a "you win" button but let's not forget the game is much more difficult now and will get much more difficult in subsequent patches.
How is this any stronger than starting with 3 luxuries within your borders than selling one on turn 20 for 300g? Is that a 60% chance of winning the game?
Well, I beat the vanilla game on deity regularly, so I don't have any more difficulties go up to 
Except I mainly play my mod anyways so it's a moot point.
And it is stronger because the effect is immediate.
The point is, it is a drastic shift in difficulty level in your favor. It's like starting an immortal game only to find it's suddenyl a boring emperor game.
Except I mainly play my mod anyways so it's a moot point.And it is stronger because the effect is immediate.
The point is, it is a drastic shift in difficulty level in your favor. It's like starting an immortal game only to find it's suddenyl a boring emperor game.
I agree on the first 5 points.
About gameplay:
I like the map to be important. If this tiles are powerful, then great, lets fight for them. How would this not be fun
About history:
Also agree with magnus. Even if they don't exist, they had a big influence in history. They were researched and searched a lot. It's not like saying: dragons.
About point 6:
This doesn't cut it for me. Like you say this are and should be rare. I want standard resources to be more important. I hate that doing cities anywere is good. I want the location to be important. When I read civ4 life games, the discussion about the placement of the cities was so fun. In civ5 it's just: settle everywhere
The city of Atlantis with the knowledge of anti-gravitation and laser-armored tanks hasn't been found yet, either.
Shall we have it in the next patch, then?
The point is that for many it is less important to occasionally find something "really cool".
Such things are ok for a scenario. There you can have all the cool features you ever dreamt of.
In the basic game such things are game-breaking. In sp games as soon as the human player gets them, in mp player it becomes even worse.
It is just the inability of the AI which doesn't make them "lose buttons".
What kind of opportunity costs? You place a city next to them.
As cities are said to have been drastically improved in terms of defense, this seems to be pretty much a "get and keep it" feature.
Their bonusses will greatly enhance your chances to defend them, if needed, especially as natural wonders cannot be walked upon (of did they change this?).
So, as long as you keep the city, you keep the benefits of said wonder.
Yes, better tiles available for anybody.
Not game-breaking tiles which are only available once.
builer680
eats too much Taco Bell
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2010
- Messages
- 525
Ignoring the rest of your post.
Their rarity doesn't change their impact. Passing them off as "incentive to fight" brushes aside all the civs on perhaps another continent that can not necessarily fight for them until ocean embarkation. So those civs are just SoL.
Regardless of their rarity, they ARE in fact game changing in and of themselves when they DO appear. No one else has access to 10 happiness that at worst costs you a specialist slot by the middle ages, or 10 gold from one tile for the same cost.
This is ignoring the most obvious benefit of finding El Dorado on turn 5 and getting 2 free units or new cities as a result... for nothing. Their rarity does nothing to change the fact that for THAT game, one civ received a game breaking advantage in their start.
Historically accurate as the idea of different peoples having massive advantages at any one particular point in time may be, I've always thought of Civ as a game where everyone started equal and had to create their OWN massive advantages (tech, financial, cultural, etc.) through considered decisions each turn.
All of this is so simple and self evident that, frankly, it is mind boggling to find it in a vanilla, non-scenario version of this game, and that so many people here genuinely see nothing wrong with it.
Bandobras Took
Emperor
Yeah, imagine being randomly next to something being a big bonus in a Civ game. That sure didn't happen with Copper in Civ 4, or Iron in Civ 3 . . .
