New Version - December 5th (12/5)

[infidel88]

What are those 2 symbols by the cities in the 4th picture? (west of coventy and south of london)

Map pins plugin. I always mark where to put villages to make optimal roads + TR.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

The tile expansion issue is still somewhat manageable, it sometimes does select a good tile, and I just reserve a bit of gold to buy stuff. It's not great, but since I suppose it harms the AI as well, it's manageable. And good for the occasional laugh and reminder that it's just a game

 

[Zymos]

@ilteroi - do you still need examples of silly expansion logic? I think they are self-explanatory.



Picture 1 - next two expansions were desert tiles to the west In picture two I have herbalist, so tiles have even better yields. Pic 4 - why crabs weren't taken as first tile being the only luxury, only special and the best tile in 2nd ring is :| And city actually took worst tile.

Note - I appreciate a lot that you look into this logic. I was 250% for reworking this logic and I still believe it's a step in right direction and I also understand this needs time to make it work perfectly (or, at least better), so don't take it as criticism without any point. I don't want anyone to feel like 'we wanted to improve something and now you bash us for that'.

Would you say the current tile grab logic is better or worse than the previous version?

 

[ElliotS]

While the tile improvement would still need work for the AI, I wish Whoward's city Expansion mod could be worked in (http://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/CivV/UI/City Expansion.html) as an optional feature.

 

[Txurce]

While the tile improvement would still need work for the AI, I wish Whoward's city Expansion mod could be worked in (http://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/CivV/UI/City Expansion.html) as an optional feature.

I think this is a great idea. First of all, it makes sense; that is exactly what city leaders would do. The randomness we have now, on the other hand, makes no sense from a human perspective. There's nothign wrong with the AI having an automated, triangulated approach to expansion -- but why should human players be limited by it?

 

[glider1]

Best thing about it is that you can decouple plot expansion that is best for the AI from expansion that suits the human. Problem is it is too tedious and too much micro managing. Randomness is not completely stupid. It is meant to simulate the expansion of local practices at ground level that decide what happens to territory over time - that cannot be controlled by the leader.

 

[Txurce]

Best thing about it is that you can decouple plot expansion that is best for the AI from expansion that suits the human. Problem is it is too tedious and too much micro managing. Randomness is not completely stupid.

The human should be able to automate it (the way it does now) the same way as you can automate workers.

It is meant to simulate the expansion of local practices at ground level that decide what happens to territory over time - that cannot be controlled by the leader.

You can call it the leader, or you can call it local practices... in every case, it's still a human deciding to spread over here, rather than over there.

 

[glider1]

The human should be able to automate it (the way it does now) the same way as you can automate workers.

That would be awesome and the best solution that solves all problems and adds extra strategy. Problem is it needs another button in the UI for automation.

 

[infidel88]

It was mentioned already that going into human selecting tiles causes huge advantage against AI, especially given current automatic logic.

 

[Txurce]

It was mentioned already that going into human selecting tiles causes huge advantage against AI, especially given current automatic logic.

So do human tactics vs the AI military. I still think it's more fun and more logical to enable this, if possible.

 

[Strigvir]

Nah, manual expansion will be too much micro with 20+ cities.

 

[Txurce]

Nah, manual expansion will be too much micro with 20+ cities.

So you automate... the way it works now. I prefer having the option, just like with workers.

 

[ElliotS]

Nah, manual expansion will be too much micro with 20+ cities.

Honestly even if you couldn't automate it I don't think it matters as long as it's optional. I'm not sure how hard it would be to add an automate option as the game goes on, but if it's hard I'd prefer the option to use it instead of no option at all.

It was mentioned already that going into human selecting tiles causes huge advantage against AI, especially given current automatic logic.

I also mentioned that AI tile selection logic improvements shouldn't be forgone for that reason. Additionally as Txurce mentioned everything that requires thought gives the player an advantage because we have brains.

Forcing all workers to be automated would be a buff to the AI, but taking player choice out of the equation isn't a good way to balance the game imo.

As it is forcing automated tile selection is no different from forcing automated workers, except that one is vanilla and therefore seems more reasonable.

 

[CrazyG]

America and Shoshone would quite a bit worse if tile selection wasn't at least somewhat random. I think randomness here is acceptable, so long as its making reasonable decisions. Picking grassland tiles before luxuries and flood plains is just painful to watch.

 

[wobuffet]

So you automate... the way it works now. I prefer having the option, just like with workers.

Are you envisioning this as a campaign-level checkbox option, like "Enable Vassalage" or "Raging/Chill Barbarians"?

If easy to implement, I'd definitely be in support of this.

 

[Txurce]

Are you envisioning this as a campaign-level checkbox option, like "Enable Vassalage" or "Raging/Chill Barbarians"?

If easy to implement, I'd definitely be in support of this.

If it's easier than building into the game itself, sure!

 

[thunderbird_14]

15 days til Christmas

Thanks, Gazebo

when will we have a Gazebo building?

 

[Funak]

Map pins plugin. I always mark where to put villages to make optimal roads + TR.

Thanks for the response.

 

[ilteroi]

Can you give us an insight of what the logic is in regard to city expansion? Please?

ok, here's the rundown after the latest tweaks.

1. calculate the "distance", which is counted from the city plot itself. owned passable plots count 1. the unowned plot to be acquired counts depending on terrain, features etc. rivers crossings cost extra. road connection gives a discount
2. score the eligible plots according to distance, yields, resources, natural wonder presence
3. take the best 3 plots (or less if the scores are markedly different) and randomly choose the plot to be acquired from this set

all costs and weights are taken from the database. search for "influence" if you want to tweak it. the new behavior should also help the AI by guiding expansion in the most useful direction. to be released soon.

 

[Civ Spies&Lies]

Is this intended behavior?

Florence gets hit with Horde. I push out then gift crossbowmen priority #1.

CS pushback is thus strong and, fortuitously, back into Roman territory.

This triggers Rome and they join the fray with their forces. Barbs now don't stand a chance.

Adding to their misery, the barb reinforcements decide to work towards their band of brothers. This means running a long meatgrinder/gauntlet that is Flo forces, pissed Romans, and my freeflowing gifts before even really setting up.

In this screenshot you can see the results of the bloodbath. (sadly a few turns before the end of the "event." No turn screencap. Sorry.)



Fast forwarding, the lone barb hunkers down and tries to fortify/heal to some state of combat effectiveness. I *think* at one point there is a in the yellow barb trireem in that fog of war. Feels like I remember him turning tail and running but lets assume he's there anyway. Note, Flo not coastal.

Lone barb barely heals into the yellow on the last turn of the raid still hiding out in the pictured spot. Next turn...

"FLORENCE HAS FALLEN."

Um, yeah. Must have been some serious "tonight we dine in hell" action I was not able to observe on the barbs turn.

I like the mechanic very much but a few niggles make the likely most logical course of action just accepting the CS will fall and you dig it out yourself.

1. The mere presence of a barb unit (even one near death) seemed to be enough to overrun all forces. - The CS defenses, their troops, and Rome all seemingly were bested by this one little Chuck Norris-esq unit.
2. Space is at an utter premium in and around CS. Almost every tile of a CS is occupied by troops, especially if you start gifting and any other civ is anywhere nearby (likely) I won't say this was a no-win scenario for the barbs but mere attrition would have been a stunning "win" and one recounted in song and literature for ages.
3. You are, thus, mostly boxed out even if you keep troops in the area. Had this in Bucharest. Couldn't move around in the CS, a majority of steps out to surrounding tiles were "Do you Declare War on X civ?" Way too early for open borders with anybody and kind of a big ask just to clear a CS (likely one their neighbors are keen on as well.)

I dig it as it adds a sense of urgency and import to actually living up to your "ally" status more than in name only. But, as it settles out, its mostly futile even in situations where troops were ready, reinforcements were cranked out @ max intervals, and I made it priority #1. More usual circumstances would make it an even less worthwhile endeavor. Accept you can't "save" your already invested influence, let CS fall, get back some cred for "liberation" and the XP from fighting to boot.

Weirdly, a popup "CS has fallen" is probably preferable frustration wise to going through the motions for turns prior since its mostly for naught.