New Version - March 7th (3-7)

[intelli]

Defense, exploration, culture/science gains from war, city state gifts (especially when you go Autocracy late game), not sure how those mountains of units don't help.

 

[Gazebo]

Defense, exploration, culture/science gains from war, city state gifts (especially when you go Autocracy late game), not sure how those mountains of units don't help.

Boil 'em, mash 'em...

 

[Y.O.]

I always thought conscription should give you a swordsman if you have the iron for it, but if not, it falls back to spearmen. Maybe have it give you Landsknecht instead once you unlock the ability to purchase them? Personally, I really like the policy, as I like to have a few militaristic CS allies if I'm going war-monger and having a few unit to donate every once in a while has been useful to me. Can't wait to try this version out! Love the Terracotta Army buff too; If I go authority and am able to, I build it just to deny a Civ from getting a sudden boost in military, but the supply cap change makes it a must-have if you're all about war.

 

[ElliotS]

I'm curious why you like it? I can't really recall a game where it came in handy. Its such a small boost. Spearmen cost 70 production, that means you got like 12 bonus production for each pop spent in a less than ideal way. Would you support dropping the boats from conscription?

I agree Authority is an excellent tree but those boats have been a feature I disliked for a while. If I recall correctly positioning a boat won't give the garrison happiness, culture or fight crime either, which is the one way I find conscription sort of useful. Keep in mind the tree recently got its science and culture nerfed

After getting over my initial butthurt at the nerfs to my favorite tree I think the science and culture nerfs were pretty well warranted. Authority is still probably the 'best' tree, so for that reason and power creep buffs are out of the question imo. (To be clear I think the trees are balanced just fine, but Authority play-style is really good. Haven't played this patch yet though, because my computer's keyboard is broken.)

As far as why I like conscription: Boats are awesome because naval superiority is awesome and melee boats are actually really useful. I wish boats came every time in coastal cities. Spearmen are less useful, but they're good for a number of things mentioned by intelli.

Also even if you don't want it eating up a supply spot and don't have a CS to give it to, I find a lot of moves open up early to mid-game that involve sacrificing a melee target. Having damage sponges that you literally don't care about letting die can be very useful for clearing large swaths of enemies.

By the way G, do CS have a supply cap? If I give my friendly CS too many units will they get screwed?

 

[Stalker0]

The debates about Authority are interesting to me, especially from the diety players.

I'm a king player mostly, so big wars are often 20ish units. So when I hear in diety about killing 80-100 units it leaves me wondering. Either authority is balanced on King...and therefore crazy powerful on diety, or it's good on diety and then theoretically very weak on King

 

[CrazyG]

Also even if you don't want it eating up a supply spot and don't have a CS to give it to, I find a lot of moves open up early to mid-game that involve sacrificing a melee target. Having damage sponges that you literally don't care about letting die can be very useful for clearing large swaths of enemies.

That production penalty though...

It does occur to me that not having a CS its worthwhile to gift to is pretty rare. 15 influence every 8 pop isn't great value though

The debates about Authority are interesting to me, especially from the diety players.

I'm a king player mostly, so big wars are often 20ish units. So when I hear in diety about killing 80-100 units it leaves me wondering. Either authority is balanced on King...and therefore crazy powerful on diety, or it's good on diety and then theoretically very weak on King

Authority can be a worthwhile pick even if you don't have much war with other civs. Just get culture for hunting bars, backed up by strong production and early growth. I don't think barbs are more common on different difficulties.

 

[ashendashin]

The debates about Authority are interesting to me, especially from the diety players.

I'm a king player mostly, so big wars are often 20ish units. So when I hear in diety about killing 80-100 units it leaves me wondering. Either authority is balanced on King...and therefore crazy powerful on diety, or it's good on diety and then theoretically very weak on King

For me, Authority on Deity is a choice on survival or unstoppable expansion. If the land isn't bountiful or strategically viable, then Authority fixes that. If the land has good production and gold...then an aggressive start will see much success with the constant units that the AI generously grinds against me. This is from playing massive 43 civ games where everyone has space to make their way to my vulnerable cities (even if they have no hope of holding those cities. Damn it Napoleon will you please stop with the sneak attacks), so things like barb hunting and CS exploitation becomes a lot more difficult. Authority for a non aggressive start can work if you're on a small game where the barbs are close and plentiful, with CSs always near and afraid, and the other civs busy with their own problems.

 

[Infixo]

AI actually can't go over cap - IF you are stepping into the shoes of the AI to look, you're seeing the value minus its handicap. You can check the playerstats.csv file to see their actual cap and use.

I see, it's ok then. Disregard my comment.
Simple question though: are Great Admirals, Great Generals and Missiles (Guided and Nuclear) counted against supply cap?

 

[peterw1987]

My last game, all top 3 is authority, and korea is at the top with authority!!!
Followed by polynesia and aztec.

I survived early war gank by france and aztec.

I have to reroll thou, because when i reach medieval, 4 out of 9 ai civ declared war on me simultaneously. So brutal... which surprisingly, 3 of them is having DoF with me and they break it.

And i dont see any negative modifier except divergent social policies. Sad life...

 

[peterw1987]

I see, it's ok then. Disregard my comment.
Simple question though: are Great Admirals, Great Generals and Missiles (Guided and Nuclear) counted against supply cap?

Ga and gg is not counted afaik. Cant confirm missile since i never reach atomic era after supply cap patch.

 

[Txurce]

I am unable to build any units when at the supply cap.

That aside:

5 cities/55 pop: 13 cap
6 cities/73 pop: 14 cap
6 cities/93 pop: 14 cap

I'm playing Tradition. Figure 6 garrison and 3 knights -- skimpy, but I'm the Dutch, and want a fleet. But that fleet can't go over 5 except when the Sea Beggar does its thing, and I'm currently in a naval war against 2 civs, who are simply overwhelming me with naval numbers. If I lose a ranged ship, I can't replace it.

One fact stands out to me: In the past, I have never had a supply cap problem once past the very early game. This is my continual problem with the new system, and why I have quit every beta and post-beta game I've played.

 

[CrazyG]

Maybe certain coastal infrastructure could provide supply?

Nukes and guided missiles do take supply. Generals or admiral don't (they do cost a little maintenance though)

 

[Txurce]

Maybe certain coastal infrastructure could provide supply?

I have walls all around, plus HE, and one barracks and one armory. I could start building castles and add more barracks, but that's not my point. Doing those things to build a domination-capable force is one thing -- defending a standard Tradition empire against the sorts of attacks they're bound to encounter is another. There is no good gameplay reason for me to suddenly have to add layers of infrastructure spending, in order to have a decent force with 6 cities.

 

[CrazyG]

I have walls all around, plus HE, and one barracks and one armory. I could start building castles and add more barracks, but that's not my point. Doing those things to build a domination-capable force is one thing -- defending a standard Tradition empire against the sorts of attacks they're bound to encounter is another. There is no good gameplay reason for me to suddenly have to add layers of infrastructure spending, in order to have a decent force with 6 cities.

Well you probably have lighthouses or harbors though, right? My thought was a naval empire would "accidentally" increase its supply through normal behavior.

I think Barracks > Walls in general, but especially now with the supply. Barracks have 2 science and bonus from Arena, better for crime as well if you are garrisoning the city. Generally Walls are one of the last things I ever build, with obvious exceptions in vulnerable cities.

 

[Txurce]

Well you probably have lighthouses or harbors though, right? My thought was a naval empire would "accidentally" increase its supply through normal behavior.

I think Barracks > Walls in general, but especially now with the supply. Barracks have 2 science and bonus from Arena, better for crime as well if you are garrisoning the city. Generally Walls are one of the last things I ever build, with obvious exceptions in vulnerable cities.

I have 2 coastal cities: one lighthouse and one harbor, so far. Keep in mind, I'm still building basic infrastructure in some of them, and universities in others. That aside, to go from 55 pop to 93 and gain only one unit slot -- at a point in the game where the whole "conscription" rationale is moot -- goes against what I consider to be reasonable expectations.

That said, I take your point about barracks, and will try another game prioritizing them, since their incongruous new synergies fit with Tradition. However, in my current game, I'm not sure they would have made enough of a difference.

 

[Gazebo]

I have walls all around, plus HE, and one barracks and one armory. I could start building castles and add more barracks, but that's not my point. Doing those things to build a domination-capable force is one thing -- defending a standard Tradition empire against the sorts of attacks they're bound to encounter is another. There is no good gameplay reason for me to suddenly have to add layers of infrastructure spending, in order to have a decent force with 6 cities.

You can't ignore military infrastructure and expect to have a military. Doesn't make sense.

Harbors and seaports buff your supply cap, so they do help.

 

[Txurce]

You can't ignore military infrastructure and expect to have a military. Doesn't make sense.

Harbors and seaports buff your supply cap, so they do help.

Ignoring military infrastructure and expecting to have a military ought to make as much or as little sense today as it did with prior patches. For testing purposes I am playing essentially as I always have -- and it's not working. Having to build early the same additional layer of infrastructure that Genghis does makes no sense for a peaceful Tradition civ.

 

[intelli]

Not sure how much sense that makes when consider the infrastructure of somewhere like Switzerland.

 

[ashendashin]

Ignoring military infrastructure and expecting to have a military ought to make as much or as little sense today as it did with prior patches. For testing purposes I am playing essentially as I always have -- and it's not working. Having to build early the same additional layer of infrastructure that Genghis does makes no sense for a peaceful Tradition civ.

You have something of a point there. Having an infrastructure that's capable of supporting a military doesn't necessarily equal heavy fortification and training (which is most of what military buildings in CiV provides early on). To have a good and capable military, yes. Having a military vs a capable one are two different things. Sticking to the current system, maybe Tradition only needs less of a hit on going past the cap. Say, half of the growth/production penalty.

 

[Gazebo]

You have something of a point there. Having an infrastructure that's capable of supporting a military doesn't necessarily equal heavy fortification and training (which is most of what military buildings in CiV provides early on). To have a good and capable military, yes. Having a military vs a capable one are two different things. Sticking to the current system, maybe Tradition only needs less of a hit on going past the cap. Say, half of the growth/production penalty.

But he wants to have a military and a big fleet.

G