NiNES: A Broken Galaxy

[Nylan]

In every diplomatic situation and every game up until this turn (including all versions of Civ)

I have never seen or heard such thing as an NDA

I've never gotten the impression that trading tech you yourself were given was wrong from any source whatsoever, rather the contrary, as shown in the rules and many other places

show me somewhere or someone (other than those that stand to benefit from NDAs) that sees them as implied, and I will cease

although I had wanted to cease at the end of my last post

 

[Symphony D.]

show me somewhere or someone (other than those that stand to benefit from NDAs) that sees them as implied, and I will cease

OOC: The law.

"All rights reserved" is a phrase that originated in copyright law as part of copyright notices. Copyright law in most countries no longer requires such notices, but the phrase persists. The original understanding of the phrase as relating specifically to copyright may have been supplanted by common usage of the phrase to refer to any legal right, although it is probably understood to refer at least to copyright.

In case people have somehow not figured it out, the chief concern of my faction is adhering to the law, not wrong or right. That is why it made statements it did on SHI's technologies, and then stated its own restrictions would be on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Disenfrancised]

In every diplomatic situation and every game up until this turn (including all versions of Civ)

I have never seen or heard such thing as an NDA

I've never gotten the impression that trading tech you yourself were given was wrong from any source whatsoever, rather the contrary, as shown in the rules and many other places

show me somewhere or someone (other than those that stand to benefit from NDAs) that sees them as implied, and I will cease

although I had wanted to cease at the end of my last post

OCC: So anyway, when you bought that copy of Civ, I assume youo pressed 'I agree' to the terms and conditions.

Intellectual property rights have been part of western culture for centuries. I'm not really pushing this point anyway, I stipulated all my NDAs as I made them .

Crosspost!

 

[Nylan]

Unless you sent a readme with your technologies, or put a little asterisk or copyright logo at the bottom of your trades

then I don't see a problem

there may be fine print, but the print still must be there

and even if it is copyrighted, unless it says "not for resale" you can sell it

 

[Symphony D.]

OOC: Did you read the underlined part? It's no longer required to be stated in any modern legal notices in most first-world countries. Given the background of this NES implies a rise of gigantic international (and interstellar) corporations to prominence (and dominance) immediately prior to the Scourge, it isn't hard to imagine that such rulings were maintained, or even strengthened.

I personally treat it as implied, following the little scandal we had. If other people don't, then that's fine, so much more I stand to gain from the fruits of their labors.

 

[Nylan]

yes, in a post apocalyptic world every jot and tittle of international law that existed beforehand is going to be remembered, just like all that technology we're definately not re-discovering. same principle

we had no way of knowing what was remembered and what wasn't, hence our re-research of technologies

and there's another point. You weren't the first to research the techs, so you can't have a copyright

it belongs to the original discoverer, who most likely has been lost to the scourge

or it has become public property upon his/her death




EDIT: Where's Nik when we need him?....

 

[Symphony D.]

we had no way of knowing what was remembered and what wasn't, hence our re-research of technologies

OOC: The vast majority of the people we presumably rule over were around before the Scourge. The knowledge in their heads does not miraculously disappear just because it occured. A large number of those survivors are likely lawyers, given the inclination of people in Western civilizations to sue one another, and the fact lawyers are roughly as durable as cockroaches and rats. It therefore follows that a large number of them (or at least a number as prevalent as that of any other similarly sized profession) have survived. If that is the case, they will remember their studies, given how much one has to rote memorize to pass law school.

In short, yes, somebody will still have that knowledge. This doesn't quite so much apply to the mechanical side of things as in the future we will build robots to build things, and thus you must have a chip-manufacturer, a programmer, and so on, to get everything back up and running. But it does apply to things that still require humans, like law, or history.

belongs to the original discoverer, who most likely has been lost to the scourge

Recreating something in an independent vacuum is equivilent to being the first to do it. See also such things as Newton and Liebniz. Unless you're trying to argue that if we should, for example, someday meet an alien race which has just invented CD-players, we should sue them for copyright infringement because we invented it first, and just because they didn't know about it doesn't mean they're outside the law.

 

[Nylan]

Well if it's a technological vacuum, it's a legal vacuum as well

I don't see there being just one or the other. Either we remember both the tech and the laws (as there is no reason why there wouldn't still have been scientists around) or neither. There would still be members of all mechanical and scientific professions around to some degree

and the common people aren't going to forget what company invented the technology. That's something everyone remembers, rather than the all too often (and highly unfortunate) lack of knowledge about copyright information by those who are not lawyers.

Can't have both

and the CD player example is a logical fallacy, failing to take in other factors, such as former knowledge that such a thing possibly existed as we here do.

If we remember copyright law, we're gonna remember who invented windows

not one or the other

 

[Symphony D.]

If we remember copyright law, we're gonna remember who invented windows

OOC: Recite your Miranda Rights, presuming you live in the United States.

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you can not afford one, one will be provided for you by the state [...]"

Great. Now tell me who invented the spinning jenny. How about teflon? Oh, wait, odds are about 99.9% you don't know without looking it up. I sure the hell don't remember. I doubt you do either.

There would still be members of all mechanical and scientific professions around to some degree

Science is built on science.

Hey, so you know how to program advanced, self-replicating nanomachines that heal people when you're given a nano-foundry? Great. I have some twigs and rocks. What can you do for me? Technology requires a vast array of people who work at different tiers of the construction process to function. Industry does not just exist. You've got a genius AI programmer? He won't do you crap for good unless you have the computers he's trained on. And hence, unless you have every single person in that chain, no, you can't remember or redo everything. You're missing links. This rediscovery business is filling them in.

If I dropped you back in ancient Greece, think you could properly explain space-time to Plato? You'd know what it is and you could jabber E=mc^2 to him all day long, but do you think you'd know enough to actually convince him you were right? No? Then neither would some expert who knew how to make elerium fuse be able to tell you how to set up a plasteel making plant for his reactor chamber.

and the common people aren't going to forget what company invented the technology. That's something everyone remembers, rather than the all too often (and highly unfortunate) lack of knowledge about copyright information by those who are not lawyers.

Who invented the internal combustion engine? The laser? The microwave? The jet engine? The refrigerator? How many inventors can you name that came up with all these modern things you take for granted right off the top of your head? People don't memorize or care who invented what. We don't. Why would people who have AIs and databanks and robots to do things for them in the future?

Your assertion is also incorrect. See, presumably, all this technology was destroyed, as were its inventors, meaning any of the holders of it are dead, and likely forgotten. Sure, that means their original documents are irrelevent, because nobody holds them, and the documents probably don't exist anymore either.

But we are being forced to recreate the technology, usually without preexisting samples. If it were simply reverse-engineering, what you say would apply, because we would be using someone else's designs. But we aren't. We're doing it from scratch (hence why it costs so freaking much), quite possibly in a wholly different way than it was done previously to boot. That's how it's possible to so easily infringe upon patents--alter the design just a tick. Now, when all those patent records are gone anyway, and everyone who held them is dead, guess what? That means the first person to come up with and say "This is my method for solving this particular problem," gets it, and if they trade it around, it's still theirs because that's how we've done things for now 500 freakin' years. If somebody else comes up with it independently, good for them, they get the same rights.

You can remember some things without remembering others. For a quick example, I imagine you probably remember your birthday, but forgot half the things that were on your last history exam you took, whenever that might have been.

Unless there's some patent clerk wandering around, no, we all can claim IP over our inventions, and even if there is, his assertions don't mean a damn thing, because all those entities (and almost all samples of their technology) are gone. Furthermore, I don't know about the rest of you, but having formerly been a company in this game, and having refurbished old-designs for equipment and such, I do know who held the patents for those particular makes and models, and it was that self-same entity I was playing.

My entity is recognizing those old laws. You have some differing definition of law in your space empire, great for you. That doesn't mean mine are wrong. Deal with it or send a fleet over and we can fight over it.

 

[Nylan]

if the technology was lost, then the legal documents and official legislation is most likely lost as well (can you cite where EXACTLY this stipulation is cited without wikipedia?). I'm sure some lawyers can, but the collective knowledge of the galaxy is going to remember the inventors as well

oh, and no, I didn't forget anything on my last history exam analyzing the causes of WWI is a favorite of mine

so...because you were a corporation you get to make all the corporate laws in this galaxy?

and as previously stated, it's in the rules that you can trade any technology to anyone without incident. He wouldn't have put that in there if he didn't want to clarify that you can trade technology you got from someone else

I say we wait for Niklas to clear this up, as logic will have no bearing on either of us, and certainly have no bearing on gameplay. If you want to NDA technology, okay. I have my views that you have to state it. You say it is implied. The all powerful Niklas will judge what is most fair.

so let's get the stories back on before this becomes a debate thread and ceases to be a NES. We're here for fun, no?

 

[Symphony D.]

You say it is implied. The all powerful Niklas will judge what is most fair.

OOC: Oh, no, at this point, I really don't care. I'm not arguing for my own sake so much as yours. You see, with the galaxy having chosen to recognize my retroactive stating that my technologies were under NDA unless I said otherwise, I presumed that those I had from others were NDA as well, to my detriment in several trades.

So yeah, you want to say NDAs aren't implied and not in effect unless specifically stated, and make that an official ruling? Great, I don't have a problem with that, because then my technology is still protected (now, anyway) and I'm free to sell other people's stuff willy-nilly unless they've said the same, and most people (like the Emergents) haven't (or actively oppose the idea). So go right ahead, I just stand to gain funding and technology.

I'm just stating what my faction views to be the law, IC, regardless of what the moderator or anyone else says OOC. If everyone else relenquishes their rights publicly, then I have no moral or legal qualm with exploiting that to my gain. And neither will anyone else.

In short all I'm saying is: it's your loss.

[EDIT] For the record, I now officially agree with Disenfrancised that tech trading was made entirely too easy.

 

[Nylan]

I probably should have mentioned that the whole convo was completely OOC for me

as I stated in the beginning, I really to have much more to gain by being silent

my people have no opposition to it (unless I so chose to instigate propaganda of such form)

I'm merely pointing out and questioning what I thought to be an odd claim considering what was in the rules

so IC:

Kalia reccomends those who do not wish their technologies be traded away be clearly marked as NDA, possibly publicly, so to avoid confusion. Not a demand, not a threat, not even something Kalia has any influence whatsoever over

merely a suggestion to keep the paperwork simple

 

[alex994]

IC:

The Ascendancy of Guangdong has previously stated and will restate again that all military techs traded by the Ascendancy is under a NDA.

 

[TerrisH]

OOC: to note, the Nekomi Do not Reconize that your previous traded tech are under NDA.
we never got any techs from you from trade that were not Tier Ones, and since you said Tier ones are not covered by this, well, It dose not affect us, so we felt no need to comment on it.
did anyone actually declare openly or privately that they recognized this? nah, don't bother to point out if they did. Going to go look for such an instance in the thread. really, I'm typing idle thoughts now and should stop.

 

[Nylan]

From: Kalia
To: Huris

Kalia wishes to know if it's previously received technology is considered NDA, and the Democrat's official stance on NDAs regarding it's technology. What you decide considering your technology will be likewise returned concerning ours as given to you, and therefore we are curious as to your stance.

Our sincerest regards

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Shuurai Heavy Industries and its USC successor were okay with my trading them. And I don't think there's many people who don't have those technologies yet.

Huris would like to say that it does not hold NDAs on those select technologies that it has researched. However, it respects and acknowledges the NDA laws of other factions.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

OOC:

OCC: So anyway, when you bought that copy of Civ, I assume youo pressed 'I agree' to the terms and conditions.

Intellectual property rights have been part of western culture for centuries.

OOC: Did you read the underlined part? It's no longer required to be stated in any modern legal notices in most first-world countries. Given the background of this NES implies a rise of gigantic international (and interstellar) corporations to prominence (and dominance) immediately prior to the Scourge,

I thought we said to drop this so that I wouldn't have to bust out about twenty lawsuits showing how Intellectual Property is going down the drain fast. It's not just "one monolithic demonized company" as Symphony said, it's also Apple, Novell, Google, the guys making the BlackBerry, Sun with Java vs. Kaffe, umpteen other examples.
They've been part of western culture for some centuries; they've been not-part of western culture for lots of other centuries; "I agree" to terms and conditions is invalid in several countries now as it's an extra set of conditions attempted foisted on a consumer after purchase; submarine patents, patents on calculating a cosine, patents on an antigravity machine, patents on a sandwich, submarine patents, patents including explicitly bogus claim and patents on mathematics are all showing the patent system for the mockery it is.

The five principles of property
There are actually good economic reasons for choosing a private property model for some resources, and not for others. There are five key rules to consider (there may be more, these are the most obvious ones to me):

Is the resource mobile, or fixed? This criteria defines whether it is possible to accurately define the resource, or not. A mobile resource—such as migrating birds or fish—does not fit the private property model. Fixed resources, such as lobsters, do.
Does the resource have clear boundaries, or not? This criteria defines whether it is possible to accurately enforce the monopoly, or not. Land can be well-defined. Art cannot be well-defined.
What generates more wealth—exclusive ownership or sharing? This criteria defines whether it is useful to consider this resource as property at all. Exclusive ownership of a house generates wealth, but exclusive ownership of roads does not (which is why we removed toll bridges on our roads).
Is the property system economical? In other words, is the definition and enforcement of the property cheap? If so, it is accessible to all. If not, it becomes a priviledge of the rich, and the system itself stops being economically neutral.
Is the property system well-bounded? In other words, is the definition of the property clear and unnegotiable? If the definition can be manipulated and changed, then the system that manages it will grow in an unsafe manner.
All forms of property can be tested against these five rules. The rules are, ultimately, self-enforcing because any society that ignores them will find itself paying the cost, and competition between societies punishes those that choose inefficient economic models.

The dangers of bad property systems
A well-defined property system can be incredibly powerful, and badly-defined property systems can be very damaging. I’d argue that what brought down the Soviet Union was not the political system, nor military spending, but simply the fact that private ownership of farms and houses was impossible. There is a direct relationship between house prices (which mainly depend on availability of land) and economic growth, in many countries. Home ownership creates a middle class, which is the main driver of modern economies.

Let’s see what happens when we break the rules. If we try to create monopolies on mobile resources, we over-exploit those resources. If we try to enforce monopolies that don’t have clear boundaries, we spend a lot on lawyers. If we create monopolies on resources that should be shared, we lose competitive advantage. If we create expensive property systems, we unleash special interests. And if we create unbounded property systems, those special interests will grow out of control.

it isn't hard to imagine that such rulings were maintained, or even strengthened.

Your opinion. I have now presented a partial case for the opposite opinion. The Albion Documents are further such material. I find it very hard to imagine that your case would have come about, but easy to imagine that "intellectual property" continues to rot until it spontaneously combusts and companies are forced back to the good old fashion of competing on price instead of lawyers.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

From: Emergents of Providence
To: All known factions
We hereby offer to sell you our manuals and research on Holographic Simulations, which increases productivity, for a price equal to the expected benefit of one year. (Cybrans 8PP, Furians 6PP, Nekomi 8PP, Kalia 7PP, etc.) We will also be publishing simple implementations of the basic technology underlying this, that is Human-Computer Interaction and Interfaces. Those factions who are on a tight budget can instead negotiate to trade a technology.

(OOC: Yay for benevolence!)

(Edit: Clarification: HCI and Interfaces are not being given to everyone, but as inclusions to those buying Holographic Simulations.)
(Edit: Clarification number two, the price is 10% of your base production, since this increases production by 10%. So this purchase pays for itself after one year.)

 

[Niklas]

The all-powerful Niklas will say absolutely nothing on the matter. If you want to place NDA on your techs, by all means do so. If you want to trade away a tech that has had an NDA placed upon it, by all means do so. I don't care the least, as long as you handle the consequences in character. There will be no official ruling whatsoever.

So please, drop the discussion now. If you must argue, do so IC, since that's really the only important side. I will not have this thread turned (even more ) into an argument regarding proprietary law. If you want to discuss that then go to off-topic please.

And for the record, I also agree with Dis now, tech trading was indeed made a bit too easy (which Dis tried to tell me from the very beginning ). But really, the whole ruleset is an experiment, some things were bound to not work out the way I had envisioned them, and any attempts at modification at this point would only be even worse. And it's not game-breaking at any rate, so just live with it.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

"Woot! The bodysuits have finally arrived!" Mike cheered as the various members of Group Eighty-Eight strolled towards the cargo landing area. It was raining, as it usually did on Alpha Centauri Prime.
"How ironic," Eleanor grumbles, "just as we get holosims working."
"They've got holosims working?" Mike asks. He's been using GAG (glove and glasses) for the past year, and has been sustained by the fact that it's retro-nostalgic.
"Where have you been for the past month?" Gareth asks. "Yes, they've got holosims working back at home, shipping them out now, and I've ordered one to be installed at home tomorrow."
"How did you get the money for that?"
"I have friends in high places." Gareth grins.
"Very funny. I have the same friends as you do, remember? We're in this together." Mike stares at Gareth in an odd way.
Gareth explains. He passed up a few trivial bonuses and had them added to his spending account instead, then used his special researcher status to get ahead in line. While he explains, Six brings up an obscure remark from history which applies to the situation, and Jake tangents off to a historical ramble. Their discussion varies through history, analogy, use of language, spelling errors, somewhere that two of them saw a similar spelling error last week, its user, his lineage, into genealogy before petering out.

"Researchers, Project 88?" asks one of the guards at the landing site.
"Yep." Gareth waves an ID first at the guards and then at the recognizer.
'Match confirmed. Gareth Oblious.' it blares. The tone is humorously mechanical. The guards have long grown used to it, but Gareth, Jake, Mike, Eleanor and the others titter at the way it talks like something out of an old-style Menace movie.
"Warehouse 23," says one of the guards, checking a display and waving the group in, "on your right after about ten minutes' walk. Present your bill there."
"Thank you."
Warehouse 23 is as nondescript as the other storage areas. It's triple-waterproofed against the constant rain, and a spider is crawling across the top of it. The number is painted on each side of the place. The group is met by a spider at the entrance, too.
'Please display authorization' it says in the same Menace tone as the recognizer at the entrance. Gareth beeps at it. 'Bill of lading for seven full-body Cyberland suits. Please wait and they will be brought out.'
"Seven? Who's not getting one?"
"Me. I'm getting a holosim, remember?"