[BTS] Noble Shadow Game for @guyyee #2

Thank you @lymond. I'm a little slow.

Turn 75/500 | 1000BC

1. Granary finished in Uxmal
2. Work boat chopped to 1 turn from completion in Uxmal
3. Horse Archer chopped, 3 turn from completion in Mutal
4. Alphabet 1 turn from completion > Construction? since we are heading into an imminent war, hence need the catapult and elephant?
5. Great Scientist 1 turn from completion
6. Building worker in Lak (happiness cap exceeded)
7. Building worker in Itza

The near term strategy: build a sizeable army and take Celtic? how did you arrive at the decision to attack Celtic and not Aztec?
 

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4. Alphabet 1 turn from completion > Construction? since we are heading into an imminent war, hence need the catapult and elephant?
If you are planning on doing a horse archer rush, catapults and elephants will only slow the rush down. The point of doing a rush with mounted units is they can move 2 spaces instead of 1 so conquest is much faster. Adding catapults with slow down the advance and give more time for the AI to build units. Generally though, if you are doing a HA rush, you want to start building HAs as soon as possible. If you still plan on doing a HA rush, chop and whip as many as possible as soon as possible.

how did you arrive at the decision to attack Celtic and not Aztec?
The Celts have a capital that is much much closer than any other capital and their civilization is a lot closer to you than the others. You will be able to take the capital 2 turns after declaring if you build enough units (assuming you do a HA rush). This will cripple their ability to produce units and after taking their capital, the rest should be easy.
 
Actually you can take their capital the turn you declare.
 
Thank you @lymond. I'm a little slow.

Turn 75/500 | 1000BC

1. Granary finished in Uxmal
2. Work boat chopped to 1 turn from completion in Uxmal

good and good

3. Horse Archer chopped, 3 turn from completion in Mutal

Good. After Horse Archer completes, you can look at 2 popping the next Horse Archer as the GS will have completed (in other words whip off the 2 specialists. Remember: Don't whip on Turn 0 of a build as there is a whip penatly..think we discuss that before.

Also, in terms of 2popping Horse Archers, you cannot put more than 19H into HA. HA = 50H cost - 19H you 31H. At 20 hammers than leaves 30H left so it becomes a 1 pop whip. Point is to note the production that is going into a build in expectation of whipping. This may be a little complex at first but you will get the hang of it. I think we discussed this concept a bit in your last game when whipping Axes which are 35H costs ....so no more than 4H can be put into an Axe to 2 pop.
4. Alphabet 1 turn from completion > Construction? since we are heading into an imminent war, hence need the catapult and elephant?
Horse Archers can do a lot of dirty work here. If the idea is to go full conquest, then Elepults may be a consideration. I'd not go that route yet though. Let's look at the game after Alpha completes to see via trades and what to tech next.
5. Great Scientist 1 turn from completion
yep..good. I'd just build an academy with it in Mutal
6. Building worker in Lak (happiness cap exceeded)

This is very much not what I had intended for you. With HAs online that is the focus for Mutal, Lak and Itza (Ux is still developing). I had mention whipping the Library in Lak to OF into a HA plus a chop. That shoudl 1 turn a HA. Then look to 2pop some HAs in Lak.

No clue at all why that Holkan is in the queue in Lak.
7. Building worker in Itza
While another worker is not a bad idea here, again, HAs is the focus now. You could 2pop an HA with OF into a new worker there..that may be fine. But look at getting 5 to 6 HAs ..plus that chariot together asap. You will attack from the Hill NW of Bibracte for a immediate snipe of her cap.
The near term strategy: build a sizeable army and take Celtic? how did you arrive at the decision to attack Celtic and not Aztec?
Well, seems pretty obvious to me. She is right there and easy pickings. Have not seen her with any metal units. (You can also see an AIs best unit but opening dialogue.. those little comments they make sometime tell you what unit they have...like "ho ho ..I have an Axe on the way") ...fyi though..she did not have metals when I attacked her.

Monty could be the next target though.

Few other comments:

1) You still have not OB'd with Mao..no reason not to do so
2) Hindu is spreading to you nicely and religion is not an issue here with only pacifist Gandhi in Bud. I might consider a switch to Hindu now as it will give you extra happy in 3 cities.
3) The Holkan in the NE I would move 2N as this is a good spawnbust position for galleys now that you have seafood to protect. Put him on sentry mode..check the unit buttons
4) Holkan in the NW can move NW of Ux to check coast there and spawnbust galleys. Maybe potential city up there ..who knows. (he's not really spawnbusting at all right now anyway)
5) Warrior SE of Itza can go to Ux for MP..that city will grow fast soon...he doing nothing anyway.

Lastly, back to priorities. Moving worker all the way to improve that tile in Itza was bad when chopping HAs is the priority

Ugh there is a Holkan in Mutal I see as well..why is that?!!

I would replay a few turns here

Lastly, is not out of the question to let Ux use Lak's corn some. Even though worker is not what I had intended at all, do check this turn what happens when you switch Lak from corn to horses and give Ux the corn. What happens to the hammers into the worker when you do that in Lak? ...little micro things to think about.
 
Metal units would be units that require metals to build. It's important because if you are horse-archer rushing someone who doesn't have metals (and doesn't have Feudalism yet), they have to defend their cities with archers - which aren't terribly effective vs. horse archers. If they do have metal, you'll see some spearmen defending too; those can be costly for mounted units to dislodge, particularly if the city is on a hill.
 
How do I do that? still not quite familiar with religion mechanics.
Press the button in the top right corner that looks like a hand. Press the Hinduism religion and then press revolution. Being in the same religion as someone will give you a positive relations boost with leaders of the same religion, but a negative with leaders with a different religion.
 
Turn 80/500 | 875BC

* replayed (avoided Holkans, all cities except Uxmal whipping/chopping HAs)

1. Captured Celtic city (Bibracte), building Granary in Bibracte
2. Building worker in Mutal, Lak and Itza.
3. Building Research in Uxmal.
4. All 3 workers cottaging greenland tiles.
5. Currency 1 turn from completion.
6. Academy built in Mutal
7. Converted to Hinduism
8. OB with Mao (at the displeasure of Gandhi who is not in good terms with Mao?)

Spoiler T80/500 | 875BC :
civ4beyondsword_vfhaklcw0g-jpg.568147
 

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OB with Mao (at the displeasure of Gandhi who is not in good terms with Mao?)
Mao can plot at pleased, Gandhi is literally Gandhi, so rest assured that's a good trade (not to mention trade route income). In fact I don't think Gandhi even gives you -diplo for refusing to stop trading with his worst enemies? That or demands, there's something that the guy doesn't even hold against you.
 
3. Building Research in Uxmal.
After you get currency, it is generally a better idea to build wealth instead of research.

Also, try not to capture Tolosa until after it grows to size two. If you capture a city that has never grown to size 2 it will auto raze.
 
@guyyee Good job capturing Bibs.

Two things that I really don't like to see is:

1) workers building all these cottages
2) Mutal building a worker ..and Lak for that matter. You still need more HAs and Mutal should not be stagnant. Still forests to chop.

Cottage for Itza is "ok". But workers could chop...

And if you are going to lay any cottages on should go on the tile 1N of Mutal. Why?

Ux is growing into unhappy. Warrior still a bit a way. Start a settler now and switch no river cottage to Lak's corn. Lak takes horses. (Ux worker stops cottage and chops forest on that hill for settler)

Worker cottaging below Mutal can start road to Bibracte on marble and then 1N of Bibs corn, which has a road, then chop granary for Bibs on that tile

Trade Writing to Peri for Sailing. I see no other worthy trades at moment, but after Currency you can consider trading old techs for gold with some like Myst, AH, and possibly even Writing.

When you take her city SW of Bibs, I would consider leaving Tolosa alone for now and make peace for IW and Masonry. Cha-ching!

Itza - start an HA now and when city grows, 2pop into that worker. Mutal and Lak can finishes their workers at this point but then back onto HAs.

(After trading for Sailing look at the trade routes in your cities)

Also, after Currency, check to see if you can trade extra resources for gpt.

Report next turn after Currency is done, so we can discuss trades.
 
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Turn 81 | 850BC

Currency done.

And if you are going to lay any cottages on should go on the tile 1N of Mutal. Why?
Hmm... this tile doesn't appear to be overlapping with other cities. not sure why.

After trading for Sailing look at the trade routes in your cities
I see trade routes with Aztech (in Mutal), two trade routes in Mutal with Aztech as a matter of fact. Connected through coast via Sailing? Two trade routes because of Currency.

When you take her city SW of Bibs, I would consider leaving Tolosa alone for now and make peace for IW and Masonry. Cha-ching!
Just to understand your thinking: I know being able to obtain free techs from war is enticing but what about the alternative of seizing the moment and annilating Celtic for good? Are you thinking of taking the small tech gifts, wait 10 turns and take Celtic outright? Is that the plan?

Resources Trading
Looks like I can trade Crabs wtih Aztech.
civ4beyondsword_afefcjt1be-png.568204


Tech Trading
Grab Gandhi's Masonry for my Sailing tech? Maybe not, since Gandhi is Aztech worst enemy. Nothing else looks attractive. I can probably demand Masonry and Iron Working from Celtic? On the topic of tech, what shall we research next?
civ4beyondsword_vl0m3yb0tq-png.568205
 

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Press the button in the top right corner that looks like a hand. Press the Hinduism religion and then press revolution. Being in the same religion as someone will give you a positive relations boost with leaders of the same religion, but a negative with leaders with a different religion.

Thanks. How do I find out which civs adopt which religions?
 
Metal units would be units that require metals to build. It's important because if you are horse-archer rushing someone who doesn't have metals (and doesn't have Feudalism yet), they have to defend their cities with archers - which aren't terribly effective vs. horse archers. If they do have metal, you'll see some spearmen defending too; those can be costly for mounted units to dislodge, particularly if the city is on a hill.
thanks, but what's the difference between axemen rush and HA rush. when would you employ axemen vs HA.
 
Turn 81 | 850BC

Currency done.
cha-ching

Hmm... this tile doesn't appear to be overlapping with other cities. not sure why.
It's riverside grass..that always takes precedence over non-riverside grass. Point was that if you were going to cottage a tile that would be it, although as mentioned your workers had other priorities.

I see trade routes with Aztech (in Mutal), two trade routes in Mutal with Aztech as a matter of fact. Connected through coast via Sailing? Two trade routes because of Currency.
Sailing gave you foreign trade routes. I assume via the river running into the sea NE of Itza. Foreign trade routes are important. They are worth more. You should try to access them as soon as reasonably possible.

Currency gave you 2 trade routes per city.

Point here is being cognizant of trade routes in cities. Their value and how they are enabled. Something to keep in mind and be aware. Commerce is Commerce.


Just to understand your thinking: I know being able to obtain free techs from war is enticing but what about the alternative of seizing the moment and annilating Celtic for good? Are you thinking of taking the small tech gifts, wait 10 turns and take Celtic outright? Is that the plan?

It's really a choice. No one is trading IW or some simply don't have it. It's about time to get that knowledge and know where iron is on the map. Could effect future settling decisions and war tactics. Ending her with one wimpy city no big deal, but you could if you wish. I'd take the free techs and let her wallow in misery.

You could wait ten turns and attack, but I might focus my army on another target like maybe Monty. I know Hannibal has Spears so he would be touigher. Not sure what Monty has but I see no visible metals. His Jags are resourceless 5 strength swords, so no really problem for HAs, but Spears can create problems. Spears can be dealt with though.

Looks like I can trade Crabs wtih Aztech.
Good job. Make it happen.

Once Currency is in ...ALWAYS look for trade opportunities. Extra gpt is always nice, so you should always trade extra copies of resources for available gpt. And with an EXP leader like Pacal, one might consider even trading single copy of +1 health resources for a while. Trading resources also builds diplo up to +2 over time.

One thing to be aware of is the Worst Enemy deal (WE). You might avoid resource trade, like you avoid tech trades. In this case its not enabling the trade that cause a possible diplo hit, but rather the fact that the WE might request or demand that you cancel trades. Not really a big deal on Noble, but as you move up levels, diplo considerations become more important.

Also, note that you can renegotiate resource trades every 10 turns. AIs may have more gpt available at a later time. Keep tabs on that.

Grab Gandhi's Masonry for my Sailing tech? Maybe not, since Gandhi is Aztech worst enemy. Nothing else looks attractive. I can probably demand Masonry and Iron Working from Celtic? On the topic of tech, what shall we research next?
Not a bad trade really. Ofc, you can just get Masonry from Boudi and not worry about. I think we mentioned trade caps, so be wary of trading for dinky techs that you can essentially tech in 1 turn now. Actually getting techs in peace counts towards the cap too, but I'd not worry about it on preschool difficulty.

Thanks. How do I find out which civs adopt which religions?

Well, easiest way is the icons on the scoreboard in the lower right.

thanks, but what's the difference between axemen rush and HA rush. when would you employ axemen vs HA.

Well, you've partly figured that out as you have now performed an axe rush and an HA rush. Axe rushes are are performed earlier if you have copper. You only need BW and TW and copper. HAs obviously more expensive tech wise so come a bit later.

But Axe rush generally have limited viability, which decrease further as you move up level. Generally, if one is thinking of a early Axe rush you have a fairly close neighbor.

HAs are faster, stronger and allow some nice tactics. Really one of the best types of warfare in the game. AIs with metals make HA warfare harder as Spears are a direct counter, but you can often work around the issue.

If I have horses and reasonably close enemies, I will almost always consider an HA attack. Axes require much more deliberation on the cost/benefit as they may not always be reliable on highest levels.
 
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Great... lotsa learning points there. I'm enjoying your measured, deliberate play. thank you!

preschool difficulty.
:lol: yes indeed, i'm still wearing diapers.

I'll probably demand Iron Working + Masonry from Celtic. What shall I tech next after Currency?

civ4beyondsword_khafqilxwi-jpg.568272


I know Hannibal has Spears so he would be touigher. Not sure what Monty has but I see no visible metals. His Jags are resourceless 5 strength swords, so no really problem for HAs, but Spears can create problems. Spears can be dealt with though.
How to deal with Spears? What about my Holkans?
 

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I'll probably demand Iron Working + Masonry from Celtic. What shall I tech next after Currency?
In this situation I would recommend going Code of Laws -> Civil Service. Civil Service is a very strong tech because it enables the civic bureaucracy. Bureaucracy gives 50% :hammers: 50% :commerce: in the capital, and should be run at least until you get free speech. Then I would probably go for cuirs and pick up music if the Great Artist was still available for a Golden Age.
 
CoL> CS would be a standard play on higher levels. Really depends on what you'd like to do here. You can do a lot with HAs and I'd consider attacking Monty with them. Meanwhile you could grab Construction to bring Elepults online, and start building an army of Elephants and cats to take on Hanny and basically the rest of the map.

An alternative on this level, would be to go Monarchy>Feud after Construction. AIs will be slow to this stuff and those techs are really all you need to run the map - pretty much cap all the rest of the leaders. After Feud, you could go CoL>CS, but really doesn't matter at that point. Monarchy would give HR for some extra happiness.

So, depends on if you want to go full bore arse-whuppin' in this game, or focus more on empire management and mid-game warfare.

With IW reveal, settling iron would be my next priority to secure some metals. Probably would build no more than two settlers (Uxmal can handle that) and focus everything else on war.

Elies and cats plus a few axes thrown in for support will run the map.
 
I'm more inclined to play out a slow less-combative game to learn the latter half of tech tree in greater detail.

Turn 83/500 | 800BC

1. Captured Vienne (Celtic's second city), building Granary in Vienne
2. Made peace with Celtic, in return for IW and Masonry.
3. Teching CoL > Civil Service
4. Back in Pacal home soil, all cities building HAs except Uxmal.
5. Settler out in 1 turn in Uxmal after 2 pop whip.

---

1. There is iron resource southeast of Itza on a riverside grassland tile. Settle 1W of this tile?
2. There is also iron resource northwest of Uxmal. What do we do with this tile since the land surrounding it is barren.
3. I was just wondering. The rationale for attacking Aztec? Is this so that we can take out a belligerent civ early on so that we have one less problem to worry about?
4. When is a good time to re-convert citizens in Mutal to specialist scientists again?
 

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