[BTS] Noble Shadow Game for @guyyee #2

[lymond]

Ok..first let's talk about the issue with the settler whip in Uxmal. Your idea to 2 pop the settler was not a bad one, but how you did this goes against a solid golden rule, which is:

"Don't whip off strong tiles"

By strong tiles I mean specials, like food and strong production specials. The caveat to that is being able to share those tiles between cities.

That means the crabs and corn should always be worked by either Ux or Lak.

Secondly, you continued not to work that developed cottage 2N of Mutal, instead opting to work the non-river cottage, which was a waste of worker turns by the way...at the time.

I would start this turn over and not whip Ux. Instead queue up something like a LH, Library or maybe even a monument (for culture and that fish..was hoping you'd get reli spread). Grow to Size 5 and then 2pop while keeping corn and 2xcrabs.

Now, check Mutal and Itza. How could you change things here to make things better...Ux is included in the equation.

Other thoughts:

1) 1W of Iron SE of Itza is fine. Important to secure that resource. No food, but grass iron is strong tile. City can be farmed later. (note: city does not need a road to be connected)
2) CoL>CS is fine. Bureau will really boost things. You might still go Construction afterwards to get Elepults online to secure more land earlier regardless of long term goals.
3) not very concerned about ice iron...unless it was your only option
4) Monty is more about proximity and the fact that we know Hanny has spears. Hanny would be my next target with Elepults.
5) Mutal does not necessarily need to work scientists again, unless staving off unhappiness. In expectation of Bureaucracy, city should grow to happy cap so that it can work all the nice cottages. (Note: I would even cottage the river hill 1NW of Mutal)
...Uxmal will be a nice place to run scientists

6) Okay...with Currency in you can also keep tabs on available gold the AIs have. I would def trade Myst to Hanny and Mao for gold. Trade Fish to Monty for gold. Old cheap techs. Always analyze trades for gold. Gold also allows you to better analyze trade values and potentially see if an AI is teching something or close to finishing something. This leads to an important exercise:

Evaluate Gandhi's tech against his available gold. What do you see? What would you do?

Very important exercise really, and hugely beneficial as you move up levels.

Oh..in prelude to war with Monty, I would send one of your healthy HAs into his lands for a bit of scouting.

Mutal grows in 2 turns. Consider 2popping HA in Lak when Mutal grows, as Mutal can take a cottaged FP from Lak, as Lak will whip off the unhappy guy and the FP you take. Should time well with the chop the Lak worker is about to start for two fast HAs from Lak. (you are seeing the power of food now)

After CS and Construction, I might consider Calendar here as well. Usually something I trade for, but on this level AIs may be slow to it.

 

[guyyee]

"Don't whip off strong tiles"

Ok, lesson learned.

you continued not to work that developed cottage 2N of Mutal, instead opting to work the non-river cottage, which was a waste of worker turns

Again, mistake on my side.

Now, check Mutal and Itza. How could you change things here to make things better...Ux is included in the equation.

I can't see the connection there. But I do see many good tiles that are still unimproved (they need cottages).

trade Myst to Hanny and Mao for gold. Trade Fish to Monty for gold.

Wow yeah, I went ahead and traded those for gold. I didn't know I could do so much till now.

Evaluate Gandhi's tech against his available gold. What do you see? What would you do?

I would give him Sailing for 30GPT in return. Hmmm, I'm just thinking: would trading tech for gold count towards the trade cap?

Consider 2popping HA in Lak when Mutal grows,

Do you whip when the unhappiness turns still > 10? I usually wait till it becomes just 10 turn of unhappiness.

Mutal does not necessarily need to work scientists again

I'm trying to understand this, why is working scientists a one-off thing in Mutal? Won't having more scientists generate more GP points?

I would even cottage the river hill 1NW of Mutal

Why? Wouldn't a mine be better since it could possibly reveal more metal resource?

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Latest
Turn 87/500 | 700BC

1. Settled new city 1W of riverside iron. Building granary.
2. Sending worker down to build mine on the iron tile.
3. Starting to amass army just west of Aztec border.
4. HA on the way to reconnaisance.
5. Worker 2 Mutal to build cottage 1N of Mutal.
6. Worker 4 Mutal to chop HA.
7. Worker 5 Lak to chop forest 2W1N of Lak.

Question:

1. I was just wondering why is there 4 pop in Vienne while Bibracte only has 3 pop but I captured Bibracte earlier than Vienne?
2. Is there any point in increasing the espionage point to 1 for Aztec to see my military power ratio against his?
3. Would keeping 2 HAs in Vienne and Bibracte enough to fend off enemies?
4. There is a Confucian missionary in Uxmal. Not sure how he came about.. What do I do with him?
5. In previous game, I built barracks in all cities which are gonna contribute military units to war. I see we only have one barrack in Mutal. So barracks are not really that important?

 

[coanda]

would trading tech for gold count towards the trade cap?

No, the We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced cap is #-of-techs-received. Gold received does not factor in at all.

 

[Fippy]

Selling techs for gold should become one of your favorite moments
Game changing moment when players look at their own benefits first, and directly connected to markets being unprofitable buildings usually.

Worth mentioning that "you traded with our worst enemy" only occurs on loopsided trades, aka you give much more than you get (example: Alpha for small gold amount).

Lymo's little riddle with Gandhi, he prolly means AH for his gold cos all other AIs have AH already.
Techs that are "gone" by now are best to give away.

 

[lymond]

Lymo's little riddle with Gandhi, he prolly means AH for his gold cos all other AIs have AH already.
Techs that are "gone" by now are best to give away.

Says she who dislikes Currency @guyyee My does bring up a good point about techs that pretty much every other AI has already.

However, I had another point here in evaluate the trade with Gandhi. I may have not been clear enough in my direction here. What I meant is to actually compare his techs against his available gold in the diplo screen. You were correct that Sailing was the tech I was guiding you toward...but why? Well, assuming you did this, you would have noted that Gandhi only gave you 25g instead of 30g for Sailing. That clearly means that he is teching Sailing and likely near finished. So yes, you would trade Sailing for that gold now so you get something for it..and gold is always nice to get.

So the point here, is once Currency is in you should be evaluating or comparing an AI's tech to their available gold, as it will possible tell you whether they are teching something. This includes even comparing your tech against there tech+gold. (The more you play you will get a feel for a techs relative worth and in gold)

Yep, trading for gold does nothing against trade caps. That factor is based solely on techs you receive in trade, or in peace deals.

 

[lymond]

I can't see the connection there. But I do see many good tiles that are still unimproved (they need cottages).

No, the point was not about needing more cottages per se. The point was about managing cities and citizens. Tile sharing. It tied to the point about that cottage 2N of Mutal being worked. You could adjust tiles worked by the 3 cities to make sure these tiles are always worked. You need to look into your cities each turn and micro things based on growth and possible whipping.

I would give him Sailing for 30GPT in return. Hmmm, I'm just thinking: would trading tech for gold count towards the trade cap?

I basically responded to this in the post above

Do you whip when the unhappiness turns still > 10? I usually wait till it becomes just 10 turn of unhappiness.

I'm not afraid to stack a little unhappy. You can just adjust a city accordingly.

I'm trying to understand this, why is working scientists a one-off thing in Mutal? Won't having more scientists generate more GP points?

Cap is generally the best place to knock out that first GS, but the ultimate goal for the cap is to work cottages in Bureaucracy. Does not necessarily mean it won't run some more scientists later, but other cities like Uxmal can take on the responsibility of running more scientists.

Why? Wouldn't a mine be better since it could possibly reveal more metal resource?

Ha..well, the infinitesimal chance of popping a resource on a mine is in no way a reason to build one. You build a mine cause you want a city to have a mine. The point here is that that hill is grass riverside and in the cap's BFC. A cottage there is worth more in Bureaucracy...in the cap. I would not do this elsewhere. Lak could help that cottage grow as well via tile sharing.

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Latest
Turn 87/500 | 700BC

1. Settled new city 1W of riverside iron. Building granary.

good

2. Sending worker down to build mine on the iron tile.

Actually, since worker stepped on that forest, you might as well chop that into granary to finish it now. (note: cancel worker action this turn since you used go-to)

3. Starting to amass army just west of Aztec border.

yep. note: Keep your army in border like you have now to save maintenance, but move 1NW when you have a stack ready and DOW the turn after. Reason is so you can reach Tenoch in 1 turn.after Dow.

4. HA on the way to reconnaisance.

good. Many of your HAs are sitting in Celtic cities. They need to move to the front lines.

5. Worker 2 Mutal to build cottage 1N of Mutal.

that is fine

6. Worker 4 Mutal to chop HA.

I might improve marble first before chop as this will be a very nice tile for Mutal to work in Bureacracy which is not far away. Marble gives hammers and commerce which is boosted by Bureau. Chop hammers also boosted by Bureau.

7. Worker 5 Lak to chop forest 2W1N of Lak.

yeppers

Question:

1. I was just wondering why is there 4 pop in Vienne while Bibracte only has 3 pop but I captured Bibracte earlier than Vienne?

Can't remember their size when you capture them. A city loses some pop on capture. Vienne may have simply been larger at the time.

2. Is there any point in increasing the espionage point to 1 for Aztec to see my military power ratio against his?

No...I see no reason for that here. You are scouting him anyway and can see his units. (Interesting, you put Eps on Hanny instead of Gandhi as I'd recommended, but might as well keep it that way)

3. Would keeping 2 HAs in Vienne and Bibracte enough to fend off enemies?

what enemies? you will want an MP in each city eventually, but those HAs should be off to war.

4. There is a Confucian missionary in Uxmal. Not sure how he came about.. What do I do with him?

You found Confucianism. The later relis give a free missionary. I'd use him to scout. Send him over to Carthage to scout his lands for now.

5. In previous game, I built barracks in all cities which are gonna contribute military units to war. I see we only have one barrack in Mutal. So barracks are not really that important?

Correct. Mutal built one because it could at the time while waiting for the needed techs and while other cities were doing other things at the time. Not bad per se to have more barracks and even a stable or two for HAs, but speed often outweighs the extra promos. You certainly had no problem with the Celts without all the barracks.

Other note:

1) Bibiracte has a citizen running in there..fix that (edit: actually 1pop that granary now..that will fix it sure enough..ha)
2) Mutal takes one FP from Lak now. Lak can run work wine tile for now....slows growth one turn and allows you to start another HA after this one completes, and then 2pop it the following turn.
3) Ux..start a settler now
4) Holkan in NW...step 1NE and back
5) Itza...start an HA now...switch unimproved grass tile to 2H1F forest hill. 2pop the HA next turn --->finish worker
6) Vienne - start HA this turn and 2pop next turn into granary

Tech Path: Civil Service>Monarchy>Construction>Feud

Trades:

Fish to Boudi for 10g
AH to Gandhi for 30g (no reason not to give him this now ..see post above)
Myst to Hanny for 10g (thought you already did this...maybe he did not have gold at the time)

 

[guyyee]

Turn 95/500 | 500BC

1. Civil Service completed, changed legal civic to Bureaucracy
2. Teching Monarchy
3. 13 HAs amassed west of Aztech border, 4 more on the way.
4. Iron is online.

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Q

1. Start building Swordsmen?
2. OR DoW now? Since Tenochtitlan is poorly defended.

Spoiler Montezuma city defense :

3. Question about civil unrest in a colonized city - what do you normally do about it?

 

[Zavior]

You have HA's, swordsmen wouldn't really help at all but be a hinderance instead. Speed kills.

 

[WLanky13]

2. OR DoW now? Since Tenochtitlan is poorly defended.

DoW next turn. Move the HAs 1NE this turn and declare next turn so Tenochtitlan can be captured the turn after you declare.

3. Question about civil unrest in a colonized city - what do you normally do about it?

Unless the city is absolutely useless and is only costing you maintenance, keep it.

 

[lymond]

Swords? Why? ha

As Lanky said, and I said earlier, you want that HAs 1NE before DOW. If you DOW now, you add an extra turn of HA movement before they can hit Tenoch. That means Monty is in war mode an additional turn.

Really, you should have kicked off this war sooner. You have pleeeeenty of HAs for him.

Note: Do not move HA near Tenoch next turn before DOW. When you DOW he should teleport out of Monty's borders but will have his movement points.

Please do not whip Mutal anymore for now. I should have made that clear. City needs to grow on cottages and start taking back FPs from Lak.

Good job on Uxmal.

ugh..you never traded Myst to Hanny, and now you can't get any gold from it

Trade Writing to Monty for 30g now. Might as well, as he will soon cease to exist.

Trade crab or cow to Mao for his 1gpt...you have plenty of health as EXP

Itza...switch that citizen to hill for extra hammers for now..not sure why that HA was not whipped earlier when it could have been

New HAs can focus on eliminating Boudi...probably just need 3 or 4 HAs for her... put them on that PH NW of her city and pounce when ready.

hmmm...Vienne is fine. That is a stupid Sid Tip. Go to game options and turn off Sid Tips.

Settler from Ux can probably just settle that clam/whales city to the NW...1S of crabs. Ux can produce wb for that city and for its fish. Likely last city you settle on your own for some time.
Move that Holkan 1 tile SW for now as I'd mentioned earlier.

Beg 60g off of Pericles. Add his gold, and choose "can you spare this for a friend".

 

[guyyee]

Turn 101/500 | 350BC

1. Captured both Teotihuacan (Aztec) and Tenotichlan (Aztec). Hesitated whether to keep or raze down Teotihuacan but kept it because of the food resource (2 corn tiles).
2. Amassing army NE of last Celtic city Tolosa. Planning a 6-unit strong HAs to capture it. Should I capture or raze this city?
3. Settler on its way up north
4. Feudalism out in 3 turns.

Question

1. What's the rationale of teching Feudalism?

2. I neglected to ask: how should you go about upgrading the military units? I went with improving the strength or medic.

3. This thing came up: Mao demands that I cancel deals with Gandhi - how do we deal with it?

4. Next tech path: Paper > Education?

5.

Beg 60g off of Pericles. Add his gold, and choose "can you spare this for a friend"

Wow... this one is novel. I didn't know you can do that. How do you know when to beg?

6.

Please do not whip Mutal anymore for now. I should have made that clear. City needs to grow on cottages and start taking back FPs from Lak.

Okay got it.

7.

Really, you should have kicked off this war sooner. You have pleeeeenty of HAs for him.

I still don't really know how to gauge adequacy of army strength. Any tips? I thought I needed to take down 3 cities, so stacking up before firing the trigger.

 

[nate46]

On upgrades: You only need one medic, and it doesn't have to be a horse archer (a random chariot you have leftover is a better choice for medic).

The rest: If you're seeing a lot of melee units (axemen, spearmen, swordsmen), then make them ALL shock. If you're not seeing too many melee units, make them ALL combat 2.

Its not good to give them different upgrades, cause when they attack a city it always picks the best defender for that particular attacker... so if you make some shock and some combat, the shock ones will attack archers and the combat ones will attack melee units.

 

[lymond]

Turn 101/500 | 350BC

1. Captured both Teotihuacan (Aztec) and Tenotichlan (Aztec). Hesitated whether to keep or raze down Teotihuacan but kept it because of the food resource (2 corn tiles).

No hesitation here. Keep good cities and these are good cities

2. Amassing army NE of last Celtic city Tolosa. Planning a 6-unit strong HAs to capture it. Should I capture or raze this city?

Once those two HAs reach the hill you should be fine to snipe her from existence

3. Settler on its way up north

good

Question

1. What's the rationale of teching Feudalism?

Good question. Feud is not something I would normally tech myself on highest levels. Here the simple reason is that you should be able to use Elepults to vassalize the map. Feud enables vassalization

2. I neglected to ask: how should you go about upgrading the military units? I went with improving the strength or medic.

You only need 1 medic in an army stack. Your GG can be used to create a supermedic. Choose an unpromoted HA>Attach GG> promote to Medic III (only available with gg unit)> if another promo add Morale for extra movement.

Let's call "upgrading" rather "promoting" here. "Upgrading" is really something different, e.g., upgrading a Horse Archer to a Knight or Cur

As for promoting HAs, you can't go wrong with the combat line. As nate mentioned above, you will always face the strongest counter to the unit in defense, so...say... you face a city with a spear and an archer but you promote an HA to C1Shock. You will face the archer not the spear. You will face the spear likely regardless, but the shock is wasted anyway against an archer. So I tend to promote primarily along the combat line with Horses. Unless you are strictly facing melee units I may use shock.

3. This thing came up: Mao demands that I cancel deals with Gandhi - how do we deal with it?

On higher levels, this may require a more judicious and logical approach since diplo is so important. I may have earlier avoided WE conflicts to begin with. On this level I'd just ignore these requests unless I had a particular reason not to.

4. Next tech path: Paper > Education?

Although there are some problems which I will address below, you have a pretty nice Empire and you are dominating the game, as you should. Obviously, I've sent you down a path of conquest or domination. Paper/Edu is not doing much for you right now since you have a tremendous tech lead and the ability to dominate the map militarily. You could choose not to do that, but your path is wide open.

I'd probably go Calendar after Feud since you have several calendar resources to boost happy, and can't rely on these AIs to tech this stuff for you. After that, it really does not matter at this point what you tech really. Just keep building untis.

5.
Wow... this one is novel. I didn't know you can do that. How do you know when to beg?

First of all, you can only "beg" from leaders at "Pleased" or higher relations. If not pleased, it then becomes a demand. In either case of success it results in a 10 turn peace treaty (important to note this if you planned on immediate attack)

How much you beg is rather dependent on how long you have known a particular leader. 60g are thereabouts is usually pretty safe if you've known a leader for around 50 turns. I might beg less if I've not know the leader very long.

A beg has at least a 20 turn cooldown, so you might note the turn you begged from a leader so you can check back later to do it again.

7.
I still don't really know how to gauge adequacy of army strength. Any tips? I thought I needed to take down 3 cities, so stacking up before firing the trigger.

You lost more HAs than I expecting taking two cities. Not sure why that was. Tenoch should have fallen easy from what I see. Ofc, anyway can get bad rolls of the dice.

The point though here is that you can certainly send reinforcements to the army but 6 or 7 HAs were fine to start the attack on Tenoch sooner. You basically waited to double the size before attacking which took some turns.

I had you send that scout HA for the very purpose of seeing a) Monty's strength b) locate any metals

Army strength is relative and it's not always simple to spell it out in a vacuum what you might need before an attack. HAs, for instance, may depend on if the target has metals as the AI will likely start to whip spears regardless whether he/she has already built some. Monty did not have metals. (Jags are resourceless unit but not very strong against HAs) Best advice I can give you in general is basically you want 2 HAs for the number of units in a city +1. Take Tolosa for example. Boudi has 2 archer sitting in there so 5 HAs should be plenty for a 1 turn sniping. Anyway, you will get a feel for this the more you play, but can't go wrong with having more than what you think is best at the time.

As for using siege weapons like in the case of Elies and catapults. General guideline is that half you stack should be pults to start with the rest Elies and maybe an Axe or two for support.

General notes on your game this turn:

1) You seem to have missed the memo on building Elies and catapults. You should have started this the moment you tech Construction to start buildup for Carthage war. All cities pretty much dedicated to that now.
2) Ux should be building 2 wbs

3) Are you checking trades? Check the resource tab. What can you do there? Check the tech tab. Any thing worth trading for gold?
...at this point I really should not have to remind on this particular concept. I'd just say you need to manage this stuff regularly and be prudent.

4) You really need to manage your unhappiness in cities. I've discussed this before. You don't just let cities grow into an unhappiness and be happy about it. You do something to counter it or whip it away. For one, switching to HR will remedy some of your unhappy, and not bad to take anarchy with a couple of cities in revolt and settler moving. Improve wine asap for more. Later calendar will add more. And, of course, use the unhappy guys to whip cats and elies.

5) Ha..Oracle is still available. You could build it in Bibracte. With the OF their now and two chop forests that should about complete it. (make sure Bibracte takes back forest from Mayapan before chopping...just click on the tile while in Bibs city screen so that it is no longer dark) Oracle not a big deal here at all, but you could take something like MC or Philo with it. If someone completes it first, then no harm as you will get some nice fail gold. Put 2 workers on those two forests now.

6) Capture that worker S of Teo

7) Monty's last city will add gold to the empire which will be nice for happy as well.

 

[guyyee]

Thank you @lymond. Your constant exhortation really helped reinforce my habit of practising good gameplay.

Turn 108/500 | 175BC

1. Captured last cities in Celtic and Aztech. Both Civs eliminated from map.
   
2. Building elepults in all cities except Uxmal and Calakmul which are building workboats.
   
3. Managed to quell all unhappy cities. Now all cities are .
4. You are right, I should check trades more often. Did multiple trades (sold Meditation to Celtic, Mao and Greek; priesthood to Hannibal), also see that Open Border is available for GPT - but not sure if this is ok?
5. Teching Engineering (tbh, since it doesn't matter much, I just picked Engineering, not sure which way to go.)
6. Are barbs still going to be a problem? When do they cease to exist?
   
7. Planning to start assembling army east of Hannibal - I think Hanni should be our next target of conquest?
   
8. I'm interested in using vassalism to learn its mechanics. how do we execute it?
9. Since we are way ahead with a huge buffer, can you teach me how to utilize other aspects of Civ4 gameplay: eg espionage or any other important mechanics?

Capturing the last Aztech city (Thateloco) was really a pain in the bottom. So much so that I panic whipped a HA in Itza, thinking that more reinforcement is needed. Had to juggle-swap the tiles between Itza, Mutal and Uxmal so that the cottages remain worked after the whip.

Took a few tries really to overcome the defense. After realizing I was attacking across river. I shifted the armies to the forest east of Thateloco. Attacking odds seemed to improve after that.

Spoiler Combat across river :

 

[Zavior]

After realizing I was attacking across river. I shifted the armies to the forest east of Thateloco. Attacking odds seemed to improve after that.

There is a 25% penalty for crossing rivers. With BUG I think you should be able to see the odds on bottom left part of the screen with the different modifiers shown as well.

 

[lymond]

Thank you @lymond. Your constant exhortation really helped reinforce my habit of practising good gameplay.

More exhorting to come

Thank you @lymondCaptured last cities in Celtic and Aztech. Both Civs eliminated from map.

Yay!

Thank you @lymondBuilding elepults in all cities except Uxmal and Calakmul which are building workboats.

I'm going to ask a question and I want you to answer this time. How could the workboats between Uxmal and Calkmul been handled in a much better way. Why is building a wb in Calakmul a very bad idea?

You will fix Uxmal based on the answer anyway, but what is wrong with Uxmal right now?

Thank you @lymondYou are right, I should check trades more often. Did multiple trades (sold Meditation to Celtic, Mao and Greek; priesthood to Hannibal), also see that Open Border is available for GPT - but not sure if this is ok?

I don't known what you mean by Open Border is available for GPT

You should really check trade options every turn. What would be a some good trades this turn?

Thank you @lymondTeching Engineering (tbh, since it doesn't matter much, I just picked Engineering, not sure which way to go.)

Using Oracle on Calendar belied my advice. In a long term game Philo would be best option but not that big a deal here. Otherwise, go for the most expensive tech that adds value. Metal Casting would have been better.

Thank you @lymondAre barbs still going to be a problem? When do they cease to exist?

Well, they don't really cease to exist as long as there are areas where they can spawn. That would not happen until the entire map is settled or at least spawnbusted in some way.
Your immediate empire is pretty safe. But the NE and SE have some barb potential. The little area W of Calakmul could spawn barbs. That holkan could remedy the situation.

Thank you @lymondPlanning to start assembling army east of Hannibal - I think Hanni should be our next target of conquest?

I'm honestly a bit surprised you don't have more units here. Not even one WE built yet. With exception of Mutal, you need to setup up better whips and get out unit faster. Most of your cities here other than Mutal are expendable for whipping.

Thank you @lymondI'm interested in using vassalism to learn its mechanics. how do we execute it?

Well, with Feud when you get enough war success you can eventually get the Peace option of making the enemy your Vassal State. So, take Hanny for instance, once you take enough cities and kill enough units he will submit. Just ask for it in the peace deal. Whether or not you take them as a vassal depends on what you are trying to do. Do you want more land? Do you want a fast conquest? Do you want a reasonably capable vassal? We can go over this more later or in other games, but for now I'm assuming fast conquest or domination. It's simply fast to cap someone as opposed to wiping them out completely..generally. (Note: A capitulated AI counts as basically a defeated civ towards a conquest victory which is achieved by wiping out all civs or capping them)

Peace vassalage is another option available. A leader may willingly submit to you when a) your power exceeds theirs substantially b) they have a positive attitude toward you. Certain leaders are more willing than others to do this...like Gandhi for example. Some leaders would have to be Friendly toward you to even remotely consider it.

Thank you @lymondSince we are way ahead with a huge buffer, can you teach me how to utilize other aspects of Civ4 gameplay: eg espionage or any other important mechanics?

I really don't see value added in going into detail on espionage at the moment. I tend to use it mainly passively like you are doing now. (though I would have put EPs on Gandhi like I told you...the reason being that at the time Hanny had focused a lot of EPs on you when you started paying attention to it, while Gandhi had none on you. Although both are the best techers on this map.) But really it makes no difference in this particular game. One thing you could try is using a couple of spies on Hanny to use city revolt mission which lowers city defense to 0% for one turn. But really it is not needed here.

Other than that, most other concepts would apply to a longer game such as focus on great people and diplo. But really right now I'd like you to focus on the concepts we've been discussed as you still have a lot of issues with some of the basics and you need to fine tune this stuff. All this becomes far more critical as you move up levels, and I expect your next game to be on Prince or Monarch level. (Prince is not really much of a step up from Noble, but Monarch will offer some new challenges)

Thank you @lymondCapturing the last Aztech city (Thateloco) was really a pain in the bottom. So much so that I panic whipped a HA in Itza, thinking that more reinforcement is needed. Had to juggle-swap the tiles between Itza, Mutal and Uxmal so that the cottages remain worked after the whip.

Yep, taking that last city was tricky and the whole "crossing river" penalty is not something we've discussed. Targeting your stack for that Gold tile would have been fine. I actually tested the attack on your last save and almost failed, but I had sent the GG over earlier and he arrived in time to attach to one unit and give XP to the units in the stack for more health. (Great way to use GG other than creating super medic) Interesting to note that you have totally ignored your GG.

Couple of other pointers here on combat:

1) Not sure if you did this and I assume you took a turn or two to heal your units before sending to his last city. But one thing to consider is not sending any units over to a city until you are ready with a attack-ready stack. Like sending one HA over and standing adjacent to the city. Reason is that with a unit next to the city tile the leader feels more threatened - regardless that you are at war - and he is more inclined to just start whipping units.
2) Another option if one needs to heal and reinforce the army is to take a ceasefire. Ceasefire is not a normal Peace treaty and it is available as an option in diplo dialogue if the leader will speak to you. A peace treaty means you can't attack for ten turns. A ceasefire brings peace but you can attack immediate. Do note though that this means you will DOW again, which brings another diplo hit with any leader that like Monty. I have no concerns about that here though. Anyway, the benefit of ceasefire is it takes the target out of "war mode" while you heal/reinforce thus they may stop building units and it establishes the state of surprise again.

Thank you @lymondTook a few tries really to overcome the defense. After realizing I was attacking across river. I shifted the armies to the forest east of Thateloco. Attacking odds seemed to improve after that.

Yep, as Zavior noted, there is a significant penalty for attacking across a river, so it should be avoided if at all possible. Before sending in a stack against a city, review the land around to the target city's center to asses for river crossing and determine the best attack path. The gold tile was the best target tile for the attack here from your direction.

Other notes to proceed.

1) I cannot emphasize this enough...again...but you really need to pay attention to your cities. Especially Mutal. I've state multiple times now that once you hit Bureaucracy, Mutal should look to take back those nicely cottaged flood plains from Lak. Instead Mutal is working an unimproved plains tile. That simply cannot happen. Look at your research rate once Mutal takes both flood plains. And Lak not working its horse is just plain silly.

2) Seeing workers building cottages on all those non-river grass tiles while there are still plenty of forests around or better things to do here is really painful to me. You need to break yourself of this habit and focus on priorities. You are in war mode and production and speeding the war effort is your priority. It's not that these tiles may or may not get cottages on them, but that it is far from a priority right now. Lak itself has 3 forest to chop

3) Bibs - queue a WE this turn and whip into cat. You need to up the army building up and not just sit around slow building stuff. Don't let your significant advantage go to waste.

4) Chop jungle first then improve the resource

5) Bibs and Mayaypan have four workers there. Too many. Mutal could use some a little work and I might dedicate one worker to a road system. One roaded tile between Mutal and Itza to speed unit from Itza west. And complete a road to Hippo for faster movement of stack west.

It's fine that you get that incense and silk improved for more health, but then chop forests. Silk worker can complete a road from Mayapan to road network for units there (1W + 1NW)

6) Aztecs cities can probably just focus on a separate stack for a war against Gandhi soon, while your main western cities focus on Carthage stack

7) Main army should head to Hippo on path to Carthage. (you can probably ignore Leptis). But I'd send a smaller stack on a Kerkoune >Utica path, hitting Kerkoune from the Northeast. Two reasons here - a) two front army confuses the AI b) Kerkoune is a threat to Calakuma and attacking from that direction will eliminate that threat entirely.

8) Again, I'd throw in a couple of Axes in the stack. Axes can often just be completed instantly from whip overflow. Also, remember that you should have about half your army as catapults.

9) Engineering not a bad call for the +1 road movement. It will add value here in your goal - or is that my goal - of killing all the things. Another option too is Aeths>Lit>Music for the free Great Artist. You can use it for a golden age and we can at least discuss mechanics around golden ages. With the derpy AI here you can probably do that after Engineering.

I would discuss before playing further. It may be better to have some discourse really before playing more turns as you seemed miss things. Better to ask the questions before playing on than bulling ahead.

10) In Tlat you have an HA #4. Promote him to medic and send him west to meet with GG near Mutal. Attach GG and promote to Medic III and Morale. He will be your supermedic for Carthage armies. (Make sure he is on a tile by himself when you attack GG or the XP will be split among any other military units on that tile)

I think you can clearly see here that you are in a dominant position and victory is more than an absolute. After the next discussion, you can probably pretty much take the reigns here and finish the game...maybe stopping for any questions or concerns and maybe if you do a golden age later.

edit: I played like 4 or 5 turns in already building a lot of units and Gandhi asked to be my vassal. I forgot he will do so at Cautious...I think maybe about the only one that will

attaching save so you can see how things should really look here. Gandhi is my peace vassal. I have 7 WEs and 5 Cats with several more units walking out the door next turn. Uxmal is fully infrastructured and can now work on units too. Calakul grew to size 2 and whipped its granary. Probably can attack Hanny in a couple turns or so and then start focus on a new stack for Peri or Mao

 

[lymond]

Attaching a complete game here for you to review after you finish yours.

Recap:

Spoiler :

Gandhi peace vassaled
Hanny bent the knee after taking just two cities
Peri capped taking 2 cities (including Athens)....he settled Knossos west of Vienne the turn before I Dow'd...I bypassed that city and went straight to Athens. Knossos not worth it and would have just been razed since it was only 1 pop and just settled.
Mao fell after 3 cities.

Although I basically shut off research after finishing Guilds, I did finish Paper. I did build a few Knights which are honestly not units I build much at all, but they are strong on this level.

With more focus, I think this game could easily be won in the BCs. I had an overkill of units here....ha.

 

[guyyee]

so many mistakes pointed out. also great morsels of advice in previous long post, truly appreciate it. yeah, i'm not exhibiting a healthy sense of urgency here. probably need to improve on that in terms of seizing the initiative and not let up the momentum.

Why is building a wb in Calakmul a very bad idea?

Building workboat takes too many turns, turns that could be used to build granary?

Gandhi asked to be my vassal. I forgot he will do so at Cautious

How do you mean? How does the Cautious attitude comes to play here wrt vassalage?

Another option too is Aeths>Lit>Music for the free Great Artist. You can use it for a golden age and we can at least discuss mechanics around golden ages. With the derpy AI here you can probably do that after Engineering.

Ok, Great Artist is online. How do we proceed?

 

[lymond]

so many mistakes pointed out. also great morsels of advice in previous long post, truly appreciate it. yeah, i'm not exhibiting a healthy sense of urgency here. probably need to improve on that in terms of seizing the initiative and not let up the momentum.

It's all part of the learning process, but ultimately one gets back what they are willing to put it. I and others will emphasize to focus more on the details...every turn. Play deliberately cause that is how we play, and really that's how you succeed on higher difficulties. One can play the game how one wishes. But I teach from the perspective of getting better and to be able to eventually play on IMM or Deity one day, regardless of whether the student desires so or not. Regardless, even a bit more concerted effort of focus on the details (or micro as we call it) can make for a more satisfying and certainly successful experience on any level.

With that said, I'm fully aware that you are learning and its difficult to grasp all these concepts all at once and be perfect. It takes time and practice. I've been right where you are now. And you are indeed learning. You are an eager and patient learner.

Building workboat takes too many turns, turns that could be used to build granary?

Calakmul is basically a junk city at first glance, and honestly I would not bother to have you settle it in this type of game cause it's not adding much to your strategy here....or my strategy of killing all the peoples . But with crabs improved asap the food can help this city become something much faster. The main reason I had you settle Calakmul was to demonstrate a certain point. That is if you do settle a city such as this with a seafood, have another city ready a wb for it asap like Ux which is already an established and rocking establishment. Ideally, the wb is timed with the settler such that you can settle and net seafood at the same time. Calakmul with crabs is a much different proposition that Calakmul and ice. But this point basically goes for any new coastal type city with ready seafood - get a wb online asap and ideally timed as best as possible.

In a longer term game, Calakmul does have some interesting potential as a possible Maoi city with added bonus of two whales.

And yes, instead of building its own workboat, Cal could start its granary.

How do you mean? How does the Cautious attitude comes to play here wrt vassalage?

I believe I or someone else at some point mentioned this strategy article found in the subforum to this very forum:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/

This is a great reference tool to understand how each leader "thinks" (i.e., how they are coded). The article was put together by a nice group of experience players from data extracted/extrapolated from game code.
by another player years ago. Really a great reference that you can have at your beck and call. I recommend bookmarking it, but it is in this sub-sub forum. Very helpful in dealing with matters of diplomacy.

I did copy out Gandhi's page to highlight the point in question(see spoiler below) ...it is near the bottom and I bolded/enlarged it.

So the point is some leaders like Gandhi are more inclined to be willing to peace vassal to larger and more powerful leaders...like yourself. However, depending on the leader they need a certain attitude toward the leader or you. Gandhi is willing at Cautious attitude. I'm not aware of any who is willing at lower than Cautious. Some must be at least "Pleased" with you, and many must be at "Friendly" before considering. Still, a leader must have a larger empire and significant power advantage over a leader before they might be willing to submit.

AIs like Gandhi tend to have smaller empires as well as building fewer units. Mansa is another great example (and he makes a great peace vassal)

Keep in mind though, especially on higher levels that I'm not just looking around for peace vassals. Sometimes things just lead that way and you luck out. Many times I was not thinking at all about it and some leader asks out of the blue to be my vassal. One thing you do have to be careful of though is sometimes that leader is getting stomped in some other war, and if you except you will get pulled into that war by virtue of being the master...that can be good thing though sometimes.

Anywho, peace vassal is not a major thing to worry much about at this stage. I just mentioned it in your game cause I knew Gandhi was a) susceptible to it b) fairly close to reaching that state of asking

Spoiler Gandhonator :

Gandhi

Mysticism and Mining

Philosophical - +100% birth rate
Double production speed of University
Spiritual - No Anarchy when changing Civics or Religions
Double production speed of Temples and the Cristo Redentor Wonder

Fast Worker - Worker with 3
Mausoleum - Jail with extra +2

Favorite Civic - Universal Suffrage

We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced appears after he sees you receive 22 techs from AIs on Emperor Difficulty (Varies based on difficulty, Tech steals don't count)
Will trade techs that don't unlock units or buildings to human when 20% of the other AIs also know the tech


Builds Wonders 2/10
Builds Units 0/10
Espionage Spending 0/10
Resists Capitulating 0/10

Asks for Help 8/10
Demands Tribute 0/10
Demands You Convert To His Religion 2/10
Demands Civic Change 10/10

Declares Wars of Conquest on Neighbors whom He is Annoyed With 0/10

Flavor Culture (High)
Faction (Peace Weight) Good (+10)
Base Attitude towards Human Player (+2)​

Possible Diplo Bonuses
Special Note: Gandhi gives a -2 penalty when you declare war on someone he is pleased with
Special Note: Gandhi gives 0 penalty when you refuse his request for help, refuse any of his demands, or make arrogant demands towards him
Different Religion Penalty - Up to -2 Relations (or -3 if Gandhi owns the Holy City)
Shared Religion Bonus - Up to +5 Relations (or +6 if Gandhi owns the Holy City)
Shared War Bonus - Up to +2 Relations (or +3 while human and Gandhi share a war)
Shared Civic Bonus - Up to +7 Relations
Tech trades required to receive +1 "shared your technological discoveries with us" - 20

Attitude Thresholds
Will open borders: Always
Will trade techs: Always
Will trade extra happy resources: Always
Will trade extra health resources: Always
Will trade extra strategic resources: Cautious
Will trade map: Always
Can plot war at pleased: Nope
Can be bribed to war against AI: Friendly (If he is annoyed or lower with target AI)
Will sign trade embargoes: Friendly (If he is cautious or below with target civ)
Will adopt religion: Cautious
Will adopt civic: Pleased
Will possibly peace vassal to human player: Cautious
Will form defense pact: Friendly
Will form permanent alliance: Friendly


Favorite Tile Improvements: Cottage + Windmill[

Ok, Great Artist is online. How do we proceed?

I'll touch on this in separate post on your current turn

 

[lymond]

Before I talk about the Great Artist and golden age mechanics( which is a very important concept but not that relevant in this game), I'm going to stop here and asking you to analyze your own game. Please look at your cities and tell me by city what could be different. Walk me through it. Also, I'd like to know how Tlateloco happened.

Also, that Holkan should have never moved from that spot he was busting on in the NE. There was a reason I had you stand him there. Basically you'd never have to worry about barb galley spawn and building boats. Now a barb galley can spawn on any of those dark coastal tiles and ravage your seafood. (except the fish tile which can't be reach except by your own boats)

Note: Once you have Engineering, trebs should be your go to siege unit. Much more effective than cats against cities. You really need more siege here and should maybe have at least two more cities on siege focus.

I would not have razed those Carthaginian cities. Not great cities but you could gift them back to Hanny once he bends the knee.

Ask Gandhi to tech something for you in the diplo dialogue. You should be able to find the option easy. Doesn't matter what, but I want you to see that you can. Compass might be a good choice.
Also, gift him Maths and ask him to stop trading with Peri. Peri won't like it be who cares in this game. (Note: Gandhi does need Math first before asking him to tech Compass since Maths opens Compass...and Currency as well)
Gift Gandhi Currency the following turn. It's a good tech to boost him...and helps you too.

I just hold Guilds as a place holder for now ...accumulate some gold (don't often tech guilds on higher levels but it's fine here...you can basically shut off research at this point)

I have no clue what you are doing with that great general ...was that your first GG or second?

You are still fixated on those grass cottages. Mutal is fine for them, but elsewhere you have far more important things to do. Please stop.

I'm attaching a save of the turn after just to show that state of things after some adjustments:

Oh..just noticed that stack over in Azteckia. That is nice. Maybe not that best direction to attack Mao from since far from his core, but you could start at Navajo...attack from 2NW.