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Nobles' Club 183: Mansa Musa of Mali

Guys how come when I download the zip I cannot find the games when i try to load them? I've extracted them to my saved games file
They're World Builder saves - are you extracting them to your BTS\Saves\WorldBuilder folder and then selecting "Play a Scenario" from the menu? Once you've loaded one and saved your game for the first time they can be loaded like regular saves.
 
Played this on Noble, which I generally play on. I'm currently way clear on the leaderboard having just teched Nationalism. I managed an early axe rush of De Gaulle as he was just focusing on Wonders. Orleans was an easy take, Paris was touch and go but after destroying his improvements around the city he couldn't build Archers quickly enough to counter the Swords I'd whipped in the meantime. Paris had the Pyramids, Great Wall and Stonehenge, so i was able to switch spiritually into Representation and had a free Monument in every City I founded subsequently. Julius immediately DOW'd me once I'd destroyed France (they quickly settled another City while I was camped outside Paris), which I was prepared for and only had to repel a small Praet/Axeman force relatively easy. Once we settled a peace it was plain sailing. I was able to build the Colossus in Timbuktu after bulbing MC from the Oracle. Amazingly the Great Lighthouse still had not been built by 500AD so I built that in a Moai charged coastal Paris. I've not actively pursued any wars since. Washington would be my logical target as I control the Apostolic Palace alongside a Hindu JC who has just been at war with Buddhist America. Really there should be no reason to lose this game as I'm far ahead and teching extremely fast. I'm at around 60% on the slider and gaining +44 GPT, but still only require 5 turns to produce Nationalism. The only real threat is a dogpile on me, but I cannot see that happening.

I guess the way it has gone maybe I should try again at a higher level, which I have never done before. I'm probably way worse than you guys as I don't micro-manage enough (eg switching civics in Golden Ages) and probably don't specialise cities enough, but I think I could step up a level and see how that goes.
 
Played this on Noble, which I generally play on. I'm currently way clear on the leaderboard having just teched Nationalism. I managed an early axe rush of De Gaulle as he was just focusing on Wonders. Orleans was an easy take, Paris was touch and go but after destroying his improvements around the city he couldn't build Archers quickly enough to counter the Swords I'd whipped in the meantime. Paris had the Pyramids, Great Wall and Stonehenge, so i was able to switch spiritually into Representation and had a free Monument in every City I founded subsequently. Julius immediately DOW'd me once I'd destroyed France (they quickly settled another City while I was camped outside Paris), which I was prepared for and only had to repel a small Praet/Axeman force relatively easy. Once we settled a peace it was plain sailing. I was able to build the Colossus in Timbuktu after bulbing MC from the Oracle. Amazingly the Great Lighthouse still had not been built by 500AD so I built that in a Moai charged coastal Paris. I've not actively pursued any wars since. Washington would be my logical target as I control the Apostolic Palace alongside a Hindu JC who has just been at war with Buddhist America. Really there should be no reason to lose this game as I'm far ahead and teching extremely fast. I'm at around 60% on the slider and gaining +44 GPT, but still only require 5 turns to produce Nationalism. The only real threat is a dogpile on me, but I cannot see that happening.

I guess the way it has gone maybe I should try again at a higher level, which I have never done before. I'm probably way worse than you guys as I don't micro-manage enough (eg switching civics in Golden Ages) and probably don't specialise cities enough, but I think I could step up a level and see how that goes.

Congrats on the win on Noble. I've recently made the switch from a noble to an emperor player. (I lost this one on Emperor though). It's great to see people getting into NC at the NOBLE level. Once you're clear of the leader board on Nobel, you're definitely in good shape - you can win probably in a lot of different ways. If you play it out, let us know which way you went.

...You're ready for Monarch! Try it out. You'll find that the AI is better for Trading techs, and they'll have more cash on hand. On the other hand, you probably can't Axe-Rush anyone except maybe Ghandi. :) ...you don't need to Micro much at Monarch - you just need to make good tech choices, good diplo choices, and not forget to expand. it's not until Immortal -> Deity that you really HAVE to micro.
 
I pushed onto destroy America. HC Vassalised to me a few turns before and JC declared on Washington. I couldn't risk Rome taking so much territory to the south so I joined the war. Stalin also joined after a bribe from me. I took New York, Boston, Washington and San Francisco whilst directing Stalin to Seattle and JC to take the east coast. This was all done with cannons and cuirassiers, which after gaining all their XP are now Cavalry. Washington capitulated so I have gifted him some territory back. My options now are either to press home my advantage against Rome, or to blaze through Russia. Paris is making a Cavalry every turn now after placing a Military Academy in there. Ideally I'd like Stalin to go to war with Sitting Bull so they weaken each other. From there it'd be a conquest victory I guess.
 
Playing this old un partly because Lain did a video so I can see how it's done properly after I've played the turns. Also never played Musa but have being enjoying anarchy civics swaps etc on the Justin games. Suggestions and comment welcome and much appreciated.


Spoiler Monarch Turn 76 :

I SIPped, started worker and then I explored the map in a wide arc right to left, finishing by FBing a couple W of where Djenne is now. Met most of the AIs on route or shortly afterwards. Noted JC was close. Waaaay too close. Teched Ag which was obvs but then struggled to think what to tech next as AH would leave my worker only roads to work on. Watched the first 50 turns of Lain's vid and he chose BW. Obvs now since I started with Mining. I then built a warrior and a second worker, whipping that into a settler. I was keen to stop DG and Julie on my flanks from being too near my capital. I sent the first settler to Djenne because it could share Tim's abundant food and founded the city when DG sent a settler that way a couple of turns later. Thwarted from getting the lovely Plains Cow, DG turned back. Since I had found no Copper accept across the water on a possible island I figured Skirmishers were gonna be necessary to deal with barbs and a possible Praet rush from Julie. Therefore i teched hunting and Archery next and sent out FBers to the South to replace warriors and FB new locations. Did a nice job, never paid any supply costs and only saw one barb archer by turn 76 who wandered off.

Being worried that JC would come settle near X and be right on my cap I put my next settler on X ready to settle if I saw him going for it. So far no sign. I sent a worker out roading to the Gold near where Kumbi is now so I could get my 4th settler there asap when built. Commerce has been scarce so I really wanted that gold. Once my 4th settler was a turn off I sent the settler from X there as there was no sign of Julie and new settler took its place.

I took Fishing next as city X would want to fish eventually and in the meantime I could get some commerce from the lakes whenever Timb had spare peeps. Then teched Myst so cities could build Monuments to pop borders. Then Pot to get some cottages going and AH for the Plains cow and maybe the sheep in the cap eventually. So far I've been mining it since the corn and wheat were farmed. Very useful since the extra food was pretty superfluous. Finally writng for OBs and TRs with neighbours. Julie had kindly roaded some pigs only one tile from my already roaded gold. No TRs yet but I think it's fully connected as I've just done a deal with Julie - his pigs for my cow. No advantage except in gaining relations I hope. I'll road into DG next.

Quiet on the diplo front. George hates DG. HC and Julie have rival religions, mostly AIs are pleased with each other or at worse cautious as they all are with me. I spied on George until I could see what he was teching. He's reached Alpha - the only one to do so. I'm teching it now. I hope he'll do a deal to swap with Myst when I've put enough bkrs into it. Now I'm watching Julie, I'm sure he'll rush to Praets as soon as he can. I need to be ready - I think I'm his nearest neighbour.

I've just settled my 4th city to share a cottage and corn with Timb and block DG from the marble I intend to settle South of it, screen off my patch from Stalin

Right, I'm off to watch Lain's game for another 25 turns. In a previous game he had twice the bkrs by turn 100 to me and even though I replayed that a few time I still couldn't match it though i did get much closer. I must do a mirror game sometime and match him turn for turn as far as AI and Barbs etc allow

Civ4ScreenShot0471.JPG

 
OK I played a turn by turn mirror of the first 74 moves of Lain's youtube game here

NB Updated because I found 5 missing commerce and fixed an error that had bugged me.

I was on Monarch so I don't get killed by barbs or AI while matching Lain's every move as much as possible. I think I have done that pretty well - one worker is a turn behind because he had to enter forest to road whereas on Lain's game it was clear. Just lately another worker had to build a cottage on a different tile because the tile Lain used was jungle. But otherwise I've teched what he's teched, built what he's built, settled where he's settled turn by turn. The only difference is I had an extra warrior because his one got killed and there was no major threat to Kumbi so I've FBed a little differently and deployed units to face different threats. Oh and Lain got religion but so far that hasn't helped him at all. It will but he's always whipped below that cap. In a couple turns I will gift a city to Caesar as Lain planned because Julie is plotting whereas Lain is planning to gift one to Stalin as he is plotting. No tech trades yet, I opened borders the same turn as Lain did. I gifted DG corn but later than Lain as we had no trade connection. I think Lain also gifted wheat to Julie but again I have no trade connection yet.

Spoiler :

Yet here we are on turn 74 and Lain is teching 12% more BPT than me. 40 vs 35!!
My game
Civ4ScreenShot0497.JPG


Lain's game (sorry it's a bit obscured but youtube reacts as soon as I press screenshot)
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How come? He has more trade connections with the AIs than me but surely his cities aren't getting 2 TR in every one?

Besides he's playing on Deity and I'm on Monarch so presumably his costs are higher than mine so that implies he's getting even more commerce?

Please help. I'm utterly confused. Especially since I'm no more BPT following Lain than I was on my own game in the post before.

ps added my save (Buffy 005) but i'd really like to see Lain's :crazyeye: :crazyeye:
 

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foreign trade routes?
thanks, I guess so but does seem a lot for so early in the game with such small cities. Perhaps if I tried to mirror his game on deity I'd get to see if barbs don't get me. Or, if I played this one longer I'd catch up shortly as I connect with other AIs. That depends on Julie not killing me first though.
 
If you work 3 less mines and 3 more lakes in your northern cities, Skarpa, you will make up for the commerce difference.
Without opening the video, I would assume Lain has higher pop than you do in those 2 cities, which would help working the lakes. edit : the mined sheep is fine but the other 2 hills drag you down.

Tbh, working a plains hills at size 1 in Kumbi Saleh is an absolute no-go ;) You should know better at this point :hug:
If the city already has a Granary, the Library can be a fine place holder, but, considering the lack of food special, that city will never run a specialist. "Place holder" is "at best". This is not the city for a Library.
It would be more reasonable to have the city contribute a warrior or grow (on lakes !) on a Lighthouse if/when you acquire Sailing. Imagine if that city was well on its way to size 3...

edit 2 : if you have the habit to play rather fast, I would advise to make use of the governor in the city screens and
Most often emphasize Food + Commerce. This is the basic set up for any city. If you want to work a hammer tile, you micromanage it.
This also prevents the AI to switch from working food tiles when growing into unhappiness. It's fine to grow into unhappies if you're about to unlock extra sources or if you can set up whips.
In the case of pure production cities, then Food + Hammers would do.
 
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If you work 3 less mines and 3 more lakes in your northern cities, Skarpa, you will make up for the commerce difference.
Without opening the video, I would assume Lain has higher pop than you do in those 2 cities, which would help working the lakes. edit : the mined sheep is fine but the other 2 hills drag you down.
I don't doubt you are right but I am working the exact tiles that Lain is working with the same improvements and each city has grown in lockstep with Lain's so populations are identical. I know you and others have told me off for doing stuff like working PHs or building settlers and workers with city with 1 pop and Lain does this in the video and I've simply copied him all the way. I know the disadvantages but I wouldn't dare criticise anyone waaaay waaay above my level.
 
Yes, he has trade routes with Rome, Sampsa was right all along

And I was not ! Colour me surprised when I opened the video and realized Lain doesn't have access to Fishing at 1040 BC.
To be fair, this looks like a very challenging map with very poor expansion prospects. I suppose Lain crashed his eco completely while trying to get the few worthwhile tiles in the south, starting with the gold.
Still, he is the guy who works non-FIN coast when he has commerce issues and needs to reach that tech just one turn sooner :lol: (<-- and that can actually be a very good move)
I understand the pressure to get BW really fast in order to secure some amount of land but that huge delay on Fishing ends up costing him dearly.
Those lake tiles are worth as much as riverside hamlets, they're legit good tiles and Fishing 100% had to be researched either right before or right after BW.

I was also surprised he is actually working the ph mine in Kumbi Saleh :goodjob: In fact, he switched from grass forest 2 turns before city growth :clap:
 
thanks for looking. One thing I still found odd is I was getting 4 (and later 5) Foreign Trade commerce according to the treasury without open borders and thus no foreign TRs in my cities. Not sure how this hidden trade works.
Civ4ScreenShot0484.JPG


I spent an hour or two going back ten turns to find an error that I was trying to fix by Tim not working the cottage, Found it, on one turn somehow Timb got 1 extra hammer from the same tiles that threw everything out
Spoiler :

Lain
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I 'fixed' it by working a plains tile rather than the marble for a turn. Very odd but as a result that granary would complete a whole turn sooner.
Me
Civ4ScreenShot0492.JPG


Now that made everything after match exactly so I now feel better about taking it another 25 turns, AIs permitting. As it happened when I replayed Wala kept a river tile free of jungle so I could cottage that. There's one problem up ahead in that I have to chop outside my borders which'll mess up the build there but it shouldn't matter too much I hope. As a bonus Julie didn't plot either so I can follow Lain's gift city to Stalin if he does that.

Yeah it's been a bit odd he didn't go for Fishing earlier but who am I to judge? Likewise slow building a settler in Djembe at size 2, Maybe he was having an off day. The PH mine may just be desperation to get some culture going, he's not got Myst yet either.

OK thanks again. Onto the next 25 turns

 
Yeah it's been a bit odd he didn't go for Fishing earlier but who am I to judge?
Frankly, if you do not think about why a decision is taken, how do you expect to learn from it? You may not play at the highest difficulty level, but that does not mean that you can not judge a situation.

Everyone makes mistakes, there are different playstyles, and RNG happens ...

RE: trade routes, I think that all trade routes are summed into this "foreign trade" category, even internal ones. IMHO the foreign screen offers a better trade route overview, in the "Info" tab.
 
x-post : a pen-dragon posting in 3 lines what took me an hour to write :lol: :lol: :crazyeye::blush::mischief:

Foreign Trade just means income from trade routes. In your case, they're still nternal :)

Yeah it's been a bit odd he didn't go for Fishing earlier but who am I to judge? Likewise slow building a settler in Djembe at size 2, Maybe he was having an off day. The PH mine may just be desperation to get some culture going, he's not got Myst yet either.
No, no, no. You make the effort to judge what you can.
Replicating a game, like you're doing, can be a very good exercise if it has purpose. The purpose being to understand the rationale behind the good decisions,
So that you become better able to make those for yourself.
Seeing a game from this close is an opportunity to spot the bad decisions. And, in this case, you shouldn't refrain from judging them.
Recognizing good from bad decisions is skill.

Some players are better than others but everybody will make a bad play or miss a beat, be it in management or in strategy.
Being able to reflect on a game and identify the good and the bad plays paves the way for improvement.

So you're right to question the settler from Djenne, because from a pure management perspective it doesn't make sense.
He talks a bit about it at T60. What I understand is that he doesn't think that cottaging the grassland is worth much (implied) ;
And, foremost, he's stressed about getting DoWed, so he plans for a gift city (expressed). <-- So there's context to that decision and, if it makes sense, the Deity difficulty definitely plays a part because the AIs are that much more oppressive.

The ph mine is very simple to look at rationally. It takes 2 turns to grow to size 2 so :
Over the course of those two turns, the city working the mine instead of the grassland forest produces 6 more hammers
Over the course of the following turns, the city that has grown to 2 produces 1 more hammer per turn
Therefore, if the city stagnates at size 1 for 6 or more turns (and, looking at the rate on that Library, that's definitely going to be the case),
Then it is strictly worse to work the mine at size 1 than to grow first and then work both tiles.
It would be a little different if the food bin was empty but, here, it's like the worst timing to stagnate a city :lol: You can even hear Lain grunt from dissatisfaction when he clicks to work the mine :lol:

Skipping Mysticism (rationale) is to get Writing and Alphabet earlier. This is also format dependent (i.e. difficulty level). If you get to Alphabet too late on Deity, it will make the game extremely difficult (I would feel increasingly stressed every turn after 875 BC where I do not have tech trades available).
Getting a single border pop a little bit easier is not worth the delay towards vital techs. A lot depends on Writing as well, especially :gp: and getting it any turn past T60... that's being in for a rough ride.

tl;dr : players are faillible (streaming also takes a toll). There are decisions in strategy and management. There are rationales in strategy and means in management.
Players can miss the most effective strategy or the most effective ways to implement it.
 
Frankly, if you do not think about why a decision is taken, how do you expect to learn from it? You may not play at the highest difficulty level, but that does not mean that you can not judge a situation.

He never explained why fishing was so low on his priorities. It may be an oversight, it may be something he thought could wait this long, but since I don't know what he thinks I meant I didn't really have the info to judge. I teched it earlier in my own moves games. I do know in the past couple games of his I've tried myself I thought I was in a better position but then I look at his BPT and realise I'm way off his pace despite playing at a much easier level, understanding this is really what I'm hoping to achieve.
 
I think you underestimate how much more skill and experience you have over me. People who are ignorant are generally too ignorant to even realise it. You'll have heard of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. I'm just at thye stage of exploring how ignorant I am - clearly nowhere near his or your level. Yes I can see it how he could have done some things better but overall he's kicking my butt so I'm trying to keep my mind open about what he's doing.

Here he is at turn 100 less than 25 turns later
Spoiler :


teching nearly 100BPT

92 bkers at -33 gold per turn

2025-01-20 (41).png


And here's me. Playing ahead of him - I haven't watched further than his T50 when I played from my T50 to here - I am managing just
57bpt and at 9 gold higher cost too.

I honestly thought I was playing well until I f-fed his next video to see where he'd got to. Perhaps my position is better, I certainly thought so - land is power right and I've taken my opportunity to expand on Monarch that Lain's has had much less. I have an extra city. I've never built a settler at size 1 or 2, I got fishing early, I never left a city stagnating working a PH mine, so none of those things have held me back, but they don't seem to have held him back much either.

2025-01-20 (37).png
 
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Anyway thanks to this and the help I've had I've finally just about matched him in my own-move game - at least up to T75 anyway. I've played on to 115 now so I really ought to check how he's doing. I'll probably up end replaying those turns when I see 🤣🤣🤣

EDIT I saw: He's 60+bpt turns ahead of me now 😭😭😭

So far he's chopped and cottaged some places I've held off chopping until I can build the GLib. I've worked the lakes instead. Oddly enough since DG isn't CRE I've still found his Culture oppressive even in cities with libs.

EDIT I've been told before to get on and chop forests rather than save em (Lain was talking about saving some forests for the marble wonders) and indeed I chopped out GLib in about 3 turns which was very pleasing then. Not so pleasing now though. Back to an earlier save methinks

Spoiler :

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A couple of things :
a) You should look into Granary optimization. It makes a huge difference in city development and is an excellent starting point to refine both your chopping and your whipping.
b) Most of the practice for good mechanics and the understanding of city management can be achieved in the first 50 turns. Namely, you need to have a plan on how to complete each unit/building you start. It's completely fine to practice that on Granaries.
c) Later turns will require to look at different aspects of the game, such as civics and great people production. You should try to identify aspects of the game that you neglect and try to learn about them.
d) You should care about your capital. Growing the capital into a Commerce centre (later multiplied with Academy and Bureaucracy civic) is the n°1 way to generate immense commerce. For example, at t100, your capital should probably be at least size 10, have all forests cleared and be working exclusively food and commerce tiles.

The point of chopping forests is not only to acquire production but also to clear tiles so that you can cottage and develop your commerce base.
A higher commerce base does not necessarily require more cities. It requires more population (raise your happy cap and grow to happy cap) to work developped cottage tiles. Working mines actively prevents you from developping cottages and raise your commerce output. This goes back to having a plan to complete units/buildings, a plan that does not involve mines.

:egypt:
 
I have spotted his and Henrik's use of whipping and chopping to produce overflows to go into Settlers etc, usually for just a turn before returning to a different build. I've been trying this out myself in my own game and I will go back to saves of the mirror game where he's chopped or whipped to look more closely at what's going on.

There are tiles that I could have used cottaging earlier I think. There's two grassland forests in his cap I left, as of 800BC his are only contributing 3 comm each per turn so same as the lake tiles I'm working so I probably didn't miss 'em much in my count at T75, by T100 though they'll worth 1 more each and if he has the pop he can work them and the lakes, easily doubling the output from 4 tiles. I'll do a count of cottages etc when I get my mirror game to that point. See exactly where all those bkrs are coming from I hope.

Lain only manages to get cap to size 6 by T100 but given the dearth of happy stuff around it is not too surprising. I am with you when you stress the cap should be as large as possible as long as possible, especially in bureaucracy, not that I've played many games that far lately. We all know how important these first 100 turns are which is why I am doing this exercise.
 
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