Notes on the Decline of a Great Nation

[~Corsair#01~]

America isn't doing that badly. Their economy is faring far better than the EU.

Also, their military budget and low taxes mean that they have very strong and easy options to cut their deficit which European countries don't have to the same extent.

America is in a stronger position than any other country on earth on a lot of things. The only area where they really fall behind is in militarism and civil liberties and lets face it- America has always been bringing up the rear on those issues. There's no decline there.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

When I read the title, my first though was: yeah, the Netherlands sure isn't what it used to be.

And then I read:

"The United States is frittering away its role as a model for the rest of the world.

And then I laughed. Hard.

 

[Borachio]

Bloomin' good job too. Coming over here, painting stuff Orange. Caused no end of grief.

Sailing about the Globe giving strange names to places. That made a lot of work for the British, who very kindly went round afterwards renaming it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I know We used to have class, we were a contender. We used to be somebody. Instead of a bum, like the rest of the world.

 

[Quackers]

Painting the world orange doesn't fit. Now painting the world British imperial red does, oh yeah XD

 

[Borachio]

Ah no. The Dutch are great.

Shame about the language. But luckily no one else need learn it, since the Dutch are such great linguists.

 

[GenMarshall]

What do you think? Is America in a state of decline?

Same argument can be said about the Depression Era U.S. and Civil War/Reconstruction Era U.S.

 

[Arakhor]

Shame about the language. But luckily no one else need learn it, since the Dutch are such great linguists.

One could say that they're cunning linguists.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That was so bad

 

[Joecoolyo]

I don't even know why "yellow peril" is relevant. Back then it was fear of Chinese immigrants overtaking whitey in wages et al (arent american asians more educated and richer then white americans today? so it may of taken longer but it looked like it did pan out ), today its not a fear, just an acknowledgement that China will succeed the US as the number 1# economic nation by 2016 (According to the OECD). The only thing the yellow peril and today's situation has in common is the ethnic sthick and you have lazily equalised the two on that basis with not much thought. So tell me Joe, what do you know that the OECD doesn't which means China will stay as a mere Number 2#?

The original yellow peril had less to do with Chinese immigration and more to do with the rise of Japan. Hence the parallel with China today (and Japan in the 70's, if what I hear is correct).

Also if we're going to use a linear system to measure the #1 and #2 country in the world (if that's at all possible, which it isn't), China may become the biggest economy but that does jack to change its position in the world. It's military power will still be entirely regional (and may actually be rolled back with the U.S. pivot shift to the Pacific), they still don't hold the sort of diplomatic power the U.S. does, and neither does China have a massive alliance bloc to back them up. China is all bark and no bite, I'm afraid, they're going to be stuck in their little regional power niche for quite some time.

Sorry Joe, your usually really reasonable and impartial in the stuff you post. I'm afraid your wrong though. China was slowing down, it had a few dodgy quarters in the lastt couple of years but it's still catching up every single day. Military wise it will take far, far longer for them to catch up, but it's closing the gap every single year.

The facts back me up; you can't just ignore them because the idea of a 2nd best America is so distasteful in your mind.

I'm pretty sure China's growth is still slowing down, especially with a reduced demand across the world for their goods (and a lack of demand on the homefront to buy things). China's demographics are not favorable to the system they're trying to set up, and any sort of military comparable to the U.S. is laughable even in the near future.

China might take the slot as the world biggest economy, but that's it, nothing else points to China becoming anything more than the regional power they are for quite some time.

 

[Borachio]

Also if we're going to use a linear system to measure the #1 and #2 country in the world (if that's at all possible, which it isn't), China may become the biggest economy but that does jack to change its position in the world. It's military power will still be entirely regional (and may actually be rolled back with the U.S. pivot shift to the Pacific), they still don't hold the sort of diplomatic power the U.S. does, and neither does China have a massive alliance bloc to back them up. China is all bark and no bite, I'm afraid, they're going to be stuck in their little regional power niche for quite some time.

I'm pretty sure China's growth is still slowing down, especially with a reduced demand across the world for their goods (and a lack of demand on the homefront to buy things). China's demographics are not favorable to the system they're trying to set up, and any sort of military comparable to the U.S. is laughable even in the near future.

.

This post is interesting.

1. There really doesn't seem to anything equivalent to NATO for China to latch on to. There might in the long run be a SE Asia alliance but it doesn't look very likely. Or I suppose an identity of interest with Russia. But well, what's that going to amount to?

2. The one child policy in urban areas is still in force, isn't it? And even if it gets abandoned soon, there's a substantial knock-on from years of it that China will have to tackle somehow. Perhaps by importing labour. I don't know though, maybe the rural Chinese can still provide enough of a growing work force.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I think it is more that much of the world is finally understanding that much of the supposed greatness of the US was due to geography more than anything else.

We were effectively isolated from the damage caused by two great world wars and the political machinations which occurred both before and afterwards. We are blessed with extraordinary amounts of natural resources. And most of those resources we don't have in great quantities were easily gained though imperialism and hegemony.

Ironically, having a public education system which gave nearly everybody a high school education for free played a very prominent role. But that advantage has now essentially disappeared, as many other modern countries have now passed us in this regard.

 

[Old Hippy]

I don't think America is on the decline ,But it will have to make way/step to the side, for China,in the Asia/Pacific region, it remains to be seen whether it will do this tho, could people take USA#2, will China take China#2

 

[Quackers]

The original yellow peril had less to do with Chinese immigration and more to do with the rise of Japan. Hence the parallel with China today (and Japan in the 70's, if what I hear is correct).

According to Wikipedia it refers to Chinese immigration and later fear of the Japanese in WW2. Anyway, the "original" yellow peril will be Chinese immigration as that occured first (your choice of words).

Also if we're going to use a linear system to measure the #1 and #2 country in the world (if that's at all possible, which it isn't), China may become the biggest economy but that does jack to change its position in the world. It's military power will still be entirely regional (and may actually be rolled back with the U.S. pivot shift to the Pacific), they still don't hold the sort of diplomatic power the U.S. does, and neither does China have a massive alliance bloc to back them up. China is all bark and no bite, I'm afraid, they're going to be stuck in their little regional power niche for quite some time.

Glad you finally recognise China will be the largest economy soon. Whether you like it or not, thats a huge thing in international relations. It is a South East-Asian Pacific regional power at the moment sure, but not forever. With a larger economy then the states it will gain the means to match American military might (if it wishes). It may want too sit quietly in Asia and become rich and ignore the rest of the world, something which the US couldn't .
Diplmomatically, well, it has an equal say to the states on the UN council and has so since 1971. Plus, it doesn't have a toxic reputation around the world. China has a lot of potential.
I think comparing guns is a stupid thing. At the end of the day if China and America get into a proper war it will be the end of the world, so it doesnt really matter anyway.

I'm pretty sure China's growth is still slowing down, especially with a reduced demand across the world for their goods (and a lack of demand on the homefront to buy things). China's demographics are not favorable to the system they're trying to set up, and any sort of military comparable to the U.S. is laughable even in the near future.

China might take the slot as the world biggest economy, but that's it, nothing else points to China becoming anything more than the regional power they are for quite some time.

Many countries growth has slowed down over the past few years. China did not even enter a recession, whilst American output fell and the economy shrank - China was growing about 8%. Sure, it might be slowing down from 9% to 7%(i can't be bothered to check, lets jsut take your word for it) but in the grand scheme that means nothing, China will still gain pre-eminence just a few years later.

 

[Borachio]

And so it should ,with three times the population. Even then the average Chinese person will still be nowhere near as well off as the average American.

 

[bathsheba666]

One could say that they're cunning linguists.

That would be fellacious.

 

[dutchfire]

When I read the title, my first though was: yeah, the Netherlands sure isn't what it used to be.

I'm sorry I left

 

[hobbsyoyo]

K

And so it should ,with three times the population. Even then the average Chinese person will still be nowhere near as well off as the average American.

And the average Chinese citizen will still have no say in their countries politics, much less their foreign policies. Unless of course they have a revolution, which would likely slow their development to a halt.

Their growing economic prowess will have much less pull than it should as long as they are seen as antagonistic bullies (and having one party rule reinforces rather than lessens this IMO). That isn't going to change anytime soon so I don't think the fact that they will have a bigger economy than the US will mean much in real terms for a long time.

How long ago did the US economy eclipse the UK's? I am sure it happened quite a long time before we replaced them as top dog on the global block. Their is so much more to being a superpower than raw GNP folks.

 

[Borachio]

According to this, the US eclipsed the UK in about 1870, in GDP terms.

Now what about military power?

How would you measure this? The British maintained naval supremacy till after WW1 didn't they? But does this mean much?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Does this mean you take my point?