Notes on the Decline of a Great Nation

Maybe you should. It is just 4 pages and, unlike most of this thread, actually both interesting and well written. EDIT: it also provides "the evidence" you ask for in your very first post. Do you need to be spoon-fed everything?
Insulting me and everyone else in the thread is definitely going to get me to read the article.

Why should I take the effort to retype what you won't bother to read, although it is already there, linked to in the bloody OP?:confused:
I dunno, maybe cause I'd rather that users make their own points and arguments instead of linking to articles that do it for them?

I gave up on page 7, because it was mostly what I described earlier.
Fair enough. Go away. :lol:
 
Let's read the article!

"I had to catch a train in Washington last week," New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, whose columns are read worldwide, wrote last April. "The paved street in the traffic circle around Union Station was in such poor condition that I felt as though I was on a roller coaster. I traveled on the Amtrak Acela, our sorry excuse for a fast train, on which I had so many dropped calls on my cellphone that you'd have thought I was on a remote desert island, not traveling from Washington to New York City. When I got back to Union Station, the escalator in the parking garage was broken. Maybe you've gotten used to all this and have stopped noticing. I haven't. Our country needs a renewal."
First world problems. Also, there is no cell phone reception in my university building, but it is no backwater.

But the truth is that America has transformed itself into a land of limited opportunities. In fact, that was the way SPIEGEL referred to the United States in a 1979 cover story, when the US economy had been hard-hit by the oil crisis.

SPIEGEL, delivering decline narratives since '79.

The country has forgotten the days when former President Franklin D. Roosevelt courageously told his fellow Americans that a collectively supported social welfare system didn't translate into socialism but freedom
:D

Today America lacks the financial strength, political courage and social will to embark on such large-scale, government-directed programs.
Stimulus got passed.

Page 2 can be summarized by
"And the core of the problem is the GOP."

SPIEGEL has been reading too much of Dommy's posts. (To be fair, that is true for most people)
They claim that according to the American Constitution, the United States is a Christian country, which isn't true, and their platform contains demands to eliminate all taxes or even get rid of the central government altogether.

Europe, whose class society the founders of the United States once set out to leave behind.
I thought they just wanted to avoid taxes :hmm:

Nevertheless, "decline" is a big word, especially for a nation that is still the world's number one economic and military power, and will remain so for at least the next decade. It's also a country whose innovative energy seems unbroken in many fields, and one that, unlike Europe, has balanced population growth and enormous mineral resources. In fact, when it comes to the demise of former world powers, Europe's decline is much more evident than that of the United States.
Now we are talking!

Then page 4 is blabbing about the fiscal cliff


Overall, I give the article 6/10, rather mediocre GOP-bashing, if I wanted that I would just read OT.
 
I skim read the article, with picking a paragraph here and there. Overall it didn't grab me. So I didn't pay it any more attention.

Articles tend to be either too long ( this one) and give little information. Or too short and give not enough information.
 
Dutchfire, don't get my jingoism too worked up, or I'll have to come up with a second verse to the American Gloria Patri to adequately express my excitement and love for purple mountains' majesty.
:lol:
 
If it is one thing that makes America nr.1 in my book, I unfortunately have to delve into the unsavoury vocabulaire of the empty phraseology page in that book.

It actually is the American Spirit. It's the positivism those guys seem to have. "Only in America" means you've made a positive contribution. "Only in the Netherlands/England" (the two countries I've heard this saying) it means something went stupendously wrong for the most inane reasons.

Sure it may be an empty phrase, but the manner in which the Americans side behind it (yeah they pull that off) is a trait I wish was more prevalent in European countries. Even if it's just chasing rainbows.
 
Assuming Dutchfire has done a fair job in his synopsis, yeah, nothing really pops out as a pressing issue the article raised that hasn't been discussed in this thread at length.

Then again, Yeekim says we're all worthless garbage posters, so there's that.

It actually is the American Spirit. It's the positivism those guys seem to have. "Only in America" means you've made a positive contribution. "Only in the Netherlands/England" (the two countries I've heard this saying) it means something went stupendously wrong for the most inane reasons.

Sure it may be an empty phrase, but the manner in which the Americans side behind it (yeah they pull that off) is a trait I wish was more prevalent in European countries. Even if it's just chasing rainbows.

Huh? People in other countries don't say stuff like that? And when they do it's negative???
:confused:

But there are so many great countries...:confused:
 
Only in the Netherlands does a fully government owned rail company move parts of its fiscal structure to Ireland to reduce the amount of taxes it has to pay over the profit it pays out to the Dutch government.
 
Sure it may be an empty phrase, but the manner in which the Americans side behind it (yeah they pull that off) is a trait I wish was more prevalent in European countries. Even if it's just chasing rainbows.
Huh? Studied incompetence is what has made England what it is today.

A green and pleasant land. The envy of no one.

It's so baffling why anyone wants to come here.
 
If it is one thing that makes America nr.1 in my book, I unfortunately have to delve into the unsavoury vocabulaire of the empty phraseology page in that book.

It actually is the American Spirit. It's the positivism those guys seem to have. "Only in America" means you've made a positive contribution. "Only in the Netherlands/England" (the two countries I've heard this saying) it means something went stupendously wrong for the most inane reasons.

Sure it may be an empty phrase, but the manner in which the Americans side behind it (yeah they pull that off) is a trait I wish was more prevalent in European countries. Even if it's just chasing rainbows.

We have songs about that all over the place, and one is actually titled that!

Spoiler :

Link to video.

Unofficial one in case that one above is country-blocked somewhere:


Link to video.
 
Huh? People in other countries don't say stuff like that? And when they do it's negative???
:confused:

But there are so many great countries...:confused:
We're a cynical bunch.

I mean, we're freer than Americans, our politics is less inane, "I love you" isn't uttered at the drop of a hat. But we also dearly love to complain.

edit: And we have awful national music, but thank god it's not that toecurling tripe Country and Western mu-sick.

Spoiler :
Except of course for Mr. Cash. PBUH


It's cool to be so level-headed, but it also can be aggravating at times.
 
We're a cynical bunch.

I mean, we're freer than Americans, our politics is less inane, "I love you" isn't uttered at the drop of a hat. But we also dearly love to complain.

edit: And we have awful national music, but thank god it's not that toecurling tripe Country and Western mu-sick.

Spoiler :
Except of course for Mr. Cash. PBUH


It's cool to be so level-headed, but it also can be aggravating at times.

I hate country music, but I kind of think our national anthem is badass. Rockets and bombs and kick-assery! Hell yeah!

We say I love you too much?
 
I couldn't detect a trace of irony in "Only in America". Very strange.
 
We're a cynical bunch.

I mean, we're freer than Americans, our politics is less inane, "I love you" isn't uttered at the drop of a hat. But we also dearly love to complain.

edit: And we have awful national music, but thank god it's not that toecurling tripe Country and Western mu-sick.

Spoiler :
Except of course for Mr. Cash. PBUH


It's cool to be so level-headed, but it also can be aggravating at times.

But perhaps if we told each other more frequently that we love them, repetition might make it more true. Or at least give us a case of nasty cognitive dissonance when we decide to do something not in keeping with this sentiment. A man can dream.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20154358

Spoiler :
An integral part of the American Dream is under threat - as "downward mobility" seems to be threatening the education system in the United States.

The idea of going to college - and the expectation that the next generation will be better educated and more prosperous than its predecessor - has been hardwired into the ambitions of the middle classes in the United States.

But there are deep-seated worries about whether this upward mobility is going into reverse.

Andreas Schleicher, special adviser on education at the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), says the US is now the only major economy in the world where the younger generation is not going to be better educated than the older.

"It's something of great significance because much of today's economic power of the United States rests on a very high degree of adult skills - and that is now at risk," says Mr Schleicher.

"These skills are the engine of the US economy and the engine is stuttering," says Mr Schleicher, one of the world's most influential experts on international education comparisons.

The annual OECD education statistics show that only about one in five young adults in the US reaches a higher level of education than their parents - among the lowest rates of upward mobility in the developed world.
Ohio steelworks A steelworker in Ohio in 1950 drives away his new Dodge, paid for with a $320 monthly wage. The steelworks have shut and the town is now in the "rust belt"

For a country whose self-image is based on optimism and opportunity, the US is now a country where someone with poorly-educated parents is less likely to reach university than in almost any other industrial country.

It's the opposite of a Hollywood ending.

And about one in five young adults in the US are now defined in educational terms as "downwardly mobile" - such as children who have graduate parents but who don't reach university level themselves.

When the global story of higher education is so much about rapid expansion and the race to increase graduates, it's almost counter-intuitive to find a powerhouse such as the United States on the brink of going backwards.

It's easy to overlook the dominance of US higher education in the post-war era - or how closely this was linked to its role as an economic, scientific and military superpower.

The US had the first great mass participation university system. The GI Bill, which provided subsidies for a generation of World War II veterans, supported three times as many people as are currently in the entire UK university sector.

An American born in the 1950s was about twice as likely to become a graduate than in the rest of the industrialised world.

As the cars ran off the production lines in Detroit, the graduates were leaving the universities to become part of an expanding middle class.
Overtaken

But the US university system is no longer the only skyscraper on the block. It's been overtaken by rivals in Asia and Europe.

Today's young Americans have a below-average chance of becoming a graduate, compared with other industrialised economies.

The US Education Secretary Arne Duncan, in a speech a few weeks ago, asked how the US had in "the space of a generation" tumbled from first place to 14th in graduation rates.

So what's gone wrong?

The spiralling cost of higher education in the United States is often cited as a barrier - and the collective student debt has exceeded a trillion dollars.

But Andreas Schleicher argues that a deeper problem is rooted in the inequalities of the school system.

He says that the level of social segregation and the excessive link between home background and success in school is "cutting off the supply" between secondary school and university.

The meritocratic, migrant energy in US culture is no longer operating in the school system.

"If you lose the confidence in the idea that effort and investment in education can change life chances, it's a really serious issue," says Mr Schleicher.

A US Senate committee examined this sense of imperilled optimism, in a hearing called Helping More Young People Achieve the American Dream.

The economist Miles Corak was among the expert witnesses - and he says the US education system reflects a wider picture of the "hollowing out" of the middle class.

"What you're seeing is the inequality of the labour market being echoed in education."

Prof Corak describes a polarising jobs market, with the very rich and very poor diverging - and a collapse in jobs in the middle ground, such as clerical or manufacturing jobs.

For such families, sending their children to college had once been a "defining metaphor for the country".

But it seems that the education system is no longer holding the door open to the brightest and the best, regardless of background.

The Philadelphia-based Pew research group compared the outcomes of young people in 10 western countries, in a project called Does America Promote Mobility as Well as Other Countries?

It found the US had the strongest link between family wealth and educational success - and the lowest mobility. Advantage and disadvantage were being further amplified in education.

Research manager Diana Elliott says in the US "income has a pervasive hold on mobility".


Another study by Pew, against the backdrop of recession, examined the phenomenon of downward mobility and found that a third of adults classified as middle class would slip out of that status during their adult life.

It reflected a modern sense of insecurity, where families could no longer assume their children would be as prosperous. In fact, about a quarter of children born into the middle class were expected to slip downwards.

None of this matches the image of the US as a place for fresh starts and self-made millionaires. Modern American history almost assumes an upward incline.

But evidence of this downward drift has been gathering in recent years. A study by the University of California, Berkeley, showed that school leavers in California in 1970 were more likely to stay on to higher education than their counterparts in 2000.

In terms of international education, that's like finding out that athletes were running faster 40 years ago.

Such current difficulties should not be mistaken for any kind of end-of-empire zeitgeist, says Philip Altbach, director of the Center for International Higher Education at Boston College.

Instead he says it's a more practical question of money. The rising cost of higher education is a deterrent. And there is a wider question of finance for higher education at state level.

He also says there is another "dirty little secret" of US higher education - that too many people who enrol at university fail to graduate - which pushes down the graduation rate in international comparisons.

Andreas Schleicher also says there are reasons for optimism. Almost more than any other country, he says the US has the financial resources, the capacity and the flexibility to change course quickly and to catch up.

There are already plans to recover lost ground. President Barack Obama has been re-elected with a promise that the US will regain its global first place in graduation rates by 2020.

And as part of this drive, the American Association of Community Colleges, in a project called Reclaiming the American Dream, has an ambitious plan to create five million more college places.

But it's an aspiration against a gloomy background.

"The American dream has stalled," the association's report says, describing a society where typical family incomes having been falling for more than a decade.

"A child born poor in the United States today is more likely to remain poor than at any time in our history. Many other nations now outperform us in educational attainment and economic mobility, and the American middle class shrinks before our eyes."

It's as if It's A Wonderful Life had been remade - without the happy ending.


Ummm.
 
But perhaps if we told each other more frequently that we love them, repetition might make it more true. Or at least give us a case of nasty cognitive dissonance when we decide to do something not in keeping with this sentiment. A man can dream.
Well, you've been at it for a while and as an outsider it seems to hold as much weight as "hi" or "bye".

But, I'm one of them cynical Europeans remember :)
 
Well, you've been at it for a while and as an outsider it seems to hold as much weight as "hi" or "bye".

But, I'm one of them cynical Europeans remember :)

Would adding a manly hug and back clap make it more convincing?
 
China can stall. So can the US, according to that education article?

Manly hugs????! :eeks:
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20154358

Spoiler :
An integral part of the American Dream is under threat - as "downward mobility" seems to be threatening the education system in the United States.

The idea of going to college - and the expectation that the next generation will be better educated and more prosperous than its predecessor - has been hardwired into the ambitions of the middle classes in the United States.

But there are deep-seated worries about whether this upward mobility is going into reverse.

Andreas Schleicher, special adviser on education at the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), says the US is now the only major economy in the world where the younger generation is not going to be better educated than the older.

"It's something of great significance because much of today's economic power of the United States rests on a very high degree of adult skills - and that is now at risk," says Mr Schleicher.

"These skills are the engine of the US economy and the engine is stuttering," says Mr Schleicher, one of the world's most influential experts on international education comparisons.

The annual OECD education statistics show that only about one in five young adults in the US reaches a higher level of education than their parents - among the lowest rates of upward mobility in the developed world.
Ohio steelworks A steelworker in Ohio in 1950 drives away his new Dodge, paid for with a $320 monthly wage. The steelworks have shut and the town is now in the "rust belt"

For a country whose self-image is based on optimism and opportunity, the US is now a country where someone with poorly-educated parents is less likely to reach university than in almost any other industrial country.

It's the opposite of a Hollywood ending.

And about one in five young adults in the US are now defined in educational terms as "downwardly mobile" - such as children who have graduate parents but who don't reach university level themselves.

When the global story of higher education is so much about rapid expansion and the race to increase graduates, it's almost counter-intuitive to find a powerhouse such as the United States on the brink of going backwards.

It's easy to overlook the dominance of US higher education in the post-war era - or how closely this was linked to its role as an economic, scientific and military superpower.

The US had the first great mass participation university system. The GI Bill, which provided subsidies for a generation of World War II veterans, supported three times as many people as are currently in the entire UK university sector.

An American born in the 1950s was about twice as likely to become a graduate than in the rest of the industrialised world.

As the cars ran off the production lines in Detroit, the graduates were leaving the universities to become part of an expanding middle class.
Overtaken

But the US university system is no longer the only skyscraper on the block. It's been overtaken by rivals in Asia and Europe.

Today's young Americans have a below-average chance of becoming a graduate, compared with other industrialised economies.

The US Education Secretary Arne Duncan, in a speech a few weeks ago, asked how the US had in "the space of a generation" tumbled from first place to 14th in graduation rates.

So what's gone wrong?

The spiralling cost of higher education in the United States is often cited as a barrier - and the collective student debt has exceeded a trillion dollars.

But Andreas Schleicher argues that a deeper problem is rooted in the inequalities of the school system.

He says that the level of social segregation and the excessive link between home background and success in school is "cutting off the supply" between secondary school and university.

The meritocratic, migrant energy in US culture is no longer operating in the school system.

"If you lose the confidence in the idea that effort and investment in education can change life chances, it's a really serious issue," says Mr Schleicher.

A US Senate committee examined this sense of imperilled optimism, in a hearing called Helping More Young People Achieve the American Dream.

The economist Miles Corak was among the expert witnesses - and he says the US education system reflects a wider picture of the "hollowing out" of the middle class.

"What you're seeing is the inequality of the labour market being echoed in education."

Prof Corak describes a polarising jobs market, with the very rich and very poor diverging - and a collapse in jobs in the middle ground, such as clerical or manufacturing jobs.

For such families, sending their children to college had once been a "defining metaphor for the country".

But it seems that the education system is no longer holding the door open to the brightest and the best, regardless of background.

The Philadelphia-based Pew research group compared the outcomes of young people in 10 western countries, in a project called Does America Promote Mobility as Well as Other Countries?

It found the US had the strongest link between family wealth and educational success - and the lowest mobility. Advantage and disadvantage were being further amplified in education.

Research manager Diana Elliott says in the US "income has a pervasive hold on mobility".


Another study by Pew, against the backdrop of recession, examined the phenomenon of downward mobility and found that a third of adults classified as middle class would slip out of that status during their adult life.

It reflected a modern sense of insecurity, where families could no longer assume their children would be as prosperous. In fact, about a quarter of children born into the middle class were expected to slip downwards.

None of this matches the image of the US as a place for fresh starts and self-made millionaires. Modern American history almost assumes an upward incline.

But evidence of this downward drift has been gathering in recent years. A study by the University of California, Berkeley, showed that school leavers in California in 1970 were more likely to stay on to higher education than their counterparts in 2000.

In terms of international education, that's like finding out that athletes were running faster 40 years ago.

Such current difficulties should not be mistaken for any kind of end-of-empire zeitgeist, says Philip Altbach, director of the Center for International Higher Education at Boston College.

Instead he says it's a more practical question of money. The rising cost of higher education is a deterrent. And there is a wider question of finance for higher education at state level.

He also says there is another "dirty little secret" of US higher education - that too many people who enrol at university fail to graduate - which pushes down the graduation rate in international comparisons.

Andreas Schleicher also says there are reasons for optimism. Almost more than any other country, he says the US has the financial resources, the capacity and the flexibility to change course quickly and to catch up.

There are already plans to recover lost ground. President Barack Obama has been re-elected with a promise that the US will regain its global first place in graduation rates by 2020.

And as part of this drive, the American Association of Community Colleges, in a project called Reclaiming the American Dream, has an ambitious plan to create five million more college places.

But it's an aspiration against a gloomy background.

"The American dream has stalled," the association's report says, describing a society where typical family incomes having been falling for more than a decade.

"A child born poor in the United States today is more likely to remain poor than at any time in our history. Many other nations now outperform us in educational attainment and economic mobility, and the American middle class shrinks before our eyes."

It's as if It's A Wonderful Life had been remade - without the happy ending.


Ummm.
hobbsyoyo said:
Glad you brought this up because it's a big pressing issue.

In my opinion the US should stop supporting many liberal arts degrees through Pell grants and other subsidies. I know this is an extreme position to take, but so many of them aren't worth the diploma and suck money out of the system that could be spent elsewhere.

The whole tertiary education system is on really unsure footing right now. The business plans and financial models that underpin the whole system are out of whack and in need of adjustment. On the one hand, we have some first-class institutions with genuine, quality programs. On the other, we have a glut of for-profit nightmare institutions that are worthless in as much that the only real effect they have is to drive up costs for everyone and produce flunkies with worthless degrees. It's a hot mess.

Edit: Though I do take issue with articles that say something to the affect 'graduates of today will be worse off in X years than graduates of 1970 were X years after graduation'. There is far too many things that go into that than an article can cover and has many completely unrelated, unpredictable variables that will change the outcome.

I'll just leave this here:
But a decades-long shift in emphasis on four-year, liberal arts college degrees has drained the supply of students entering job-based, vocational and technical schools. Employer- and union-sponsored training programs have also become artifacts of the last century, according to Peter Cappelli, a management professor at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School who heads the school’s Center for Human Resources.
 
Insulting me and everyone else in the thread is definitely going to get me to read the article.
I'm sorry I have apparently failed to recognize the quality of your posts. I am sure you worked hard at them. Anyway, you asked a question, I gave you an honest answer. EDIT: And, apparently, m diagnosis proved correct.
I dunno, maybe cause I'd rather that users make their own points and arguments instead of linking to articles that do it for them?
Dude, these are not my points. I am not here to prove my superior debating skills. I have no horse in this race.
I am here because the OP was interesting and I was hoping to see what people think of it, one way or another. What I found instead was mostly a circle-jerk between guys who apparently didn´t even bother to read it. People who can produce 15 pages of "points and arguments of their own" without even finding out what they are arguing about are part of the bloody problem.
Fair enough. Go away.
:hatsoff:
 
Dude, these are not my points.
Couldn't tell, I didn't read the article. This explains why:

because while many people act like their point is supported by an article, quite often what they are really doing is:
"Hey read this article. The article is my point".
And yet you say they aren't, then complain we haven't covered them adequately and oh by the way, we should read the article for some good points.

I am here because the OP was interesting and I was hoping to see what people think of it, one way or another. What I found instead was mostly a circle-jerk between guys who apparently didn´t even bother to read it. People who can produce 15 pages of "points and arguments of their own" without even finding out what they are arguing about are part of the bloody problem.

Don't know what you're on about. Clearly USA#1! is the true threat to global peace and prosperity.
 
Back
Top Bottom