nvm

[Miles Teg]

Can you give me one example where anarchy has led to a better outcome than government? By example I mean one real world concrete example. Not a theoretical example.

Since you're doubtless going to dismiss this as "historical positivism", can you explain why Haiti posses the right qualities to make your Utopian dreams come true, when they haven't in any other apparently similar situation before?

 

[ParkCungHee]

The dreams of government solving problems are utopian.. Solving problems through market activity is fully pragmatic and value free. And I stress economics is a value free science, the claim that government productive activity is negative is thus not a matter of opinion or dream but a fact. I dont want to turn this into a historical discussion but classic examples of stateless society are medieval Iceland and Ireland, the wild west, modern Somalia.

Your knowledge of medieval Ireland is appallingly ignorant. If you seriously believe Ireland was "stateless" in the middle ages, I can say you literally know nothing about Medieval Ireland.

 

[lovett]

The dreams of government solving problems are utopian.. Solving problems through market activity is fully pragmatic and value free. And I stress economics is a value free science, the claim that government productive activity is negative is thus not a matter of opinion or dream but a fact. I dont want to turn this into a historical discussion but classic examples of stateless society are medieval Iceland and Ireland, the wild west, modern Somalia.

Have you ever heard of market failure?

How does your ideology deal with that?

 

[JerichoHill]

His economics beliefs do not assume that markets can fail or that there are externalities present.

 

[Cutlass]

The dreams of government solving problems are utopian.. Solving problems through market activity is fully pragmatic and value free. And I stress economics is a value free science, the claim that government productive activity is negative is thus not a matter of opinion or dream but a fact. I dont want to turn this into a historical discussion but classic examples of stateless society are medieval Iceland and Ireland, the wild west, modern Somalia.

And yet you continually reject economic science in favor of utopian dreamings.....

 

[Fëanor]

Your knowledge of medieval Ireland is appallingly ignorant. If you seriously believe Ireland was "stateless" in the middle ages, I can say you literally know nothing about Medieval Ireland.

Same goes for Iceland, they were a Federation and while they were very decentralized by today's standards back then only a couple of city-states had centralized governments.

As for the Wild West and Somalia, how are those examples of "Anarchy Success Stories"? I have to assume you know as little about those places as you know about Medieval Ireland and Iceland

 

[Flying Pig]

3. by drug gangs who bribe the foreign occupying troops to solidify their power over the helpless Haitian civilians.

Even the spams aren't that bad. Afghans maybe, but not Americans.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Same goes for Iceland, they were a Federation and while they were very decentralized by today's standards back then only a couple of city-states had centralized governments.

Right, I knew he was, but I'm not very good at my Scandinavian history, and I'm pretty good at Medieval Ireland. While Ireland was decentralized, they certainly very much had states, and very powerful ones at that. That Brian Boruma could so effectively tax a province that he did not even directly rule that starvation was imminent suggests that he had, maybe, a bit of power, especially in Connaucht.
Also, it's pretty damning that in Ireland, it was nearly universally regarded that the most terrible of Kings were the best, as they were infinitely preferable to disorder. One man, when actually praising a king in a eulogy described him as 'the king who killed the most foes, hanged the most traitors, punished the most criminals, and crushed the most minor kings', and he evidently thought that was a good thing.

 

[Miles Teg]

I encourage Xarthaz to move to modern Somalia, and enjoy his anarchy.

 

[Bill3000]

Not really sure why small privately-owned statelets can be considered anarchy.

 

[Miles Teg]

Not really sure why small privately-owned statelets can be considered anarchy.

It fits with certain definitions of anarcho-capitalism, but really, isn't any non constitutional monarchy privately owned by definition?

 

[Bill3000]

And this is why i dont want to involve history in it. The facts can also be interpreted in a million different ways, look for any libertarian articles on the examples i posted. For all its worth, from the pov of economics its all worthless as arbitrary interpretations.

The most optimal way to respond to someone refuting your examples isn't "look it up", but if you find your empirical examples worthless then why are you bothering to say them?

Perhaps you want to move to a democratic/statist African state of my choosing? No?

I'm happy with my statist western liberal democracy, thanks.

 

[Miles Teg]

perhaps you want to move to a democratic/statist African state of my choosing? No?

Nope, because the United States comes closest to realizing my political ideology. You however listed such places as came closest to your's, and Somalia was the only currently extant one.

That's aside from the fact that "statist" is about as valid a classification as "comminazi" or "Islamofascist".

 

[Fëanor]

A practical economic question: Let say that international forces have withdrawn from Haiti and now for all intents and purposes it has become a stateless, Anarchic land.

Lets also say that i'm a one of Haiti's great Industrialist, i've a couple of big factories and the local communities that are totally dependant on the jobs provided by those factories.

I'm also very greedy and decide to stop following the extremely costly industrial waste treatment laws and start to simply dump the waste into the nearby river, cutting millions in costs to me.

For a fraction of what i'm now saving i can relocate the few people of my local community that were affected and also arm and organize one of the strongest militia in what was Haiti to defend my propriety.

How can, in an Anarchic land, the other communities further downriver were people will start to get sick and die from my pollution make me stop polluting?

 

[Cutlass]

Then why did you stop answering my economic arguments in other threads?

Because you didn't make any. You dismiss economic science as utopian, and call utopian dreams science. There aren't a lot of profitable ways to address that.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Somalia still isn't really anarchy, but a place where several governments (including several theocracies, tribal governments, and crime syndicates) are competing for control.


I've read the northern regions of Côte d'Ivoire might be closer, but still a far from perfect approximation. It seems the rebels formed a very weak government with vaguely Georgist policies (taxing land monopolies, not income), and significantly increased the quality of life for the regions once destitute but reasonably well educated populace.

 

[Cutlass]

Somalia is what true anarchy will always end up as. A bunch of warlords and gangs bullying, killing, and robbing until one ends up as dictator.

 

[Lord Baal]

And this is why i dont want to involve history in it. The facts can also be interpreted in a million different ways, look for any libertarian articles on the examples i posted. For all its worth, from the pov of economics its all worthless as arbitrary interpretations.

It must be nice to be able to ignore the mountains of historical evidence that conclusively prove that everything you are saying is wrong. In fact, I think I'll try it.

Hai, guyz, Russia is Bolshevik, all goodz, lulz?

 

[Heretic_Cata]

I've been searching through this thread for these so-called "arguments" that back up the OP.

Didn't find them.

Besides, other than in the minds of 16 year old attention hoes and the minds of crap metal lyricists, anarchy doesn't work.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Without looking at posts 12 and 37, am I right both will read: "As Rothbard puts it:"

Or something similar?