Official: Evidence points to unjustified killings by Marines

[Verbose]

Stuff like this happens in wars. No need for complacency about it though. Question is rather how the army where things like this happens chooses to deal with them.

Here it seems to boil down to this either being an isolated incident where blame can be assigned on the level of individual soldiers (i.e. the army and political level are sane and healthy, these soldiers are defective), or it's an indicator of problems on some other, more serious level (i.e. the army and political level are not sane and healthy, and the individual behavior is symptomatic of structual problems).

I see no way of telling which is the correct interpretation at this point.

It's of course abundantly clear that our very different general feelings of trust towards the US army and administration will influence which scenario we find more likely.
As far as the US military's attitude in Iraq I find the protests coming from some qarters of the British army having served alongside it worth thinking about — a counter-productive "can do attitude", meaning problems will get underreported as no one wants to bring bad news, and an administration that clearly treats any regulation of their behavior in "the war on terror" (protean, hence applicable anywhere) as a bloody nuisance that should be, and is, circumvented, which is not a good lesson by example for those supposedly fighting this "war".

If I were US army I'd want to take a long and hard look at what the situation is within it. Bad wars can break armies that aren't just good but decent to boot. Some around here clearly think the US military was never decent, some suspect it of having gone bad, while others assume it is still healthy, and bad behavior being attributable to some other factor.

Problem of course being that blaming stuff on individuals put in inherently problematic positions, like warfare, is usually a convenient cop out, allowing people not having to deal with more complicated factors.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

There is simply no excuse for this kind of atrocity.

I have to concur. While little shocks me and with a military as large as the one the US has things like this will happen. The difference we punish our who break the law, while in some militaries this is not only accepted, but encouraged.

 

[blackheart]

Right now, I wonder where all the people who screamed about Murtha have gone to? Before this was confirmed, it apparently was acceptable to attack Murtha because he was a Democrat and "hippy". I guess it isn't so now.

 

[shadow2k]

What's "official" about it?

 

[blackheart]

What's "official" about it?

The CNN headline, soldiers being held in the brig, and now this one:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/28/marines.haditha/index.html

Senate panel to probe atrocity reports
Murtha alleges cover-up after killing of Iraqi civilians in Haditha

Sunday, May 28, 2006; Posted: 7:46 p.m. EDT (23:46 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Senate Armed Services Committee will investigate allegations that U.S. Marines committed an atrocity last year in the Iraqi city of Haditha, the panel's chairman said Sunday.

Senior Pentagon sources said Friday that an ongoing investigation supports allegations that Marines killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked.

And Rep. John Murtha, appearing Sunday on ABC's "This Week," alleged a "cover-up" and said the fallout could be "worse than Abu Ghraib."

But Sen. John Warner told ABC that there should be no rush to judgment about the matter.

"We've got to let the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the investigation system, proceed before we reach any conclusions on this matter," Warner said.

The Virginia Republican said the committee would begin hearings "as soon as I cannot interfere with the Uniform Code of Military Justice, as it begins to protect the rights of all those involved."

"This is very serious, but the military are looking at it equally serious," he added.

Warner compared the promised investigation to the Senate inquiry into the abuse of inmates at Iraq's notorious Abu Ghraib prison.

"As chairman of the Armed Services Committee, I'll do exactly what we did with Abu Ghraib," he said. "Those people were before our committee, promptly, raising their right hand, under oath, giving the explanation in full."

The incident in Haditha, a city along the Euphrates River in western Iraq, occurred November 19 after a roadside bomb detonated, killing a Marine.

The Marines originally reported that 15 civilians also died in that blast, but senior Pentagon officials said Friday that a military investigation tends to support allegations that the Americans carried out an unprovoked massacre.

Charges, including murder, could soon be filed against Marines allegedly involved, the Pentagon sources said.

Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat, said reports "from the highest level" found the killings took place in the absence of firing from insurgent forces.

After the roadside bomb went off, "A taxi drives up," Murtha told ABC.

"There's four or five people in it. And they shoot those four or five people, unarmed. And then, they go on a rampage throughout the houses and kill people," said Murtha, a retired Marine colonel who has become a vocal critic of the war in Iraq.

"One woman, as I understand it, in talking to the officials in the Marine Corps, was bending over a child, pleading for mercy, and they shot her in cold blood," Murtha said.

"More disturbing" is that the Iraqi government knew about the killings, "because they made payments to the Iraqis for accidental deaths," said Murtha, a Vietnam combat veteran.

The authorization of payments to families must have been made by a senior official, meaning that high-level authorities would have known about the attack, Murtha said.

"First of all, they tried to say the IED is what killed these people. The next day, there was a team out there investigating, as they always do. And then, nothing happened. Nobody hears about it. They don't tell anybody -- until March, when Time magazine broke the news, nobody realized or recognized what happened."

Murtha said he was trying to figure out who was responsible for what he called a cover-up.

"We don't know how far it goes. I mean, it goes right up the chain of command, right up to [Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman] Gen. [Peter] Pace. When did he know about it? Did he order the cover-up? Who ordered the cover-up?" Murtha said.

"I'm sure he didn't, but who said, 'We're not going to publicize this thing -- we're not even going to investigate it?' Until March, there was no serious investigation."

Though three commanders have been relieved of duty, Murtha said he had been told the actions were not connected to the alleged atrocity.

"They tell me this is dereliction of duty. But we cannot allow something like this to fester. We can't allow it to happen. They've got to put the blame where it goes. And they've got to get this over with," he said.

Murtha said he has done more than anyone "in trying to make sure the troops have what they need. But I will not excuse murder. And this is what happened. There's no question in my mind about it."

For the last several days, the commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. Michael Hagee, has been in Iraq talking to the troops about their responsibilities during war.

Acts like the one alleged in Haditha hinder the U.S. effort in Iraq, Murtha said.

"This is the kind of war you have to win the hearts and minds of the people. We can't win this militarily," he said. "It's now got to be a political victory. And we're set back every time something like this happens. This is worse than Abu Ghraib."

Separate accusations surfaced earlier this month that Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment killed a civilian near Hamandiya, west of Baghdad, on April 26.

Several Marines have been brought back from Iraq and placed in the brig at Camp Pendleton in Southern California during the investigation, a military official told The Associated Press Sunday. (Full story)

 

[shadow2k]

@Blackheart

From your quotes:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Senate Armed Services Committee will investigate allegations that U.S. Marines committed an atrocity last year in the Iraqi city of Haditha, the panel's chairman said Sunday.

Senior Pentagon sources said Friday that an ongoing investigation supports allegations that Marines killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked.

And Rep. John Murtha, appearing Sunday on ABC's "This Week," alleged a "cover-up" and said the fallout could be "worse than Abu Ghraib."

But Sen. John Warner told ABC that there should be no rush to judgment about the matter.

"We've got to let the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the investigation system, proceed before we reach any conclusions on this matter," Warner said.

That's just the first five paragraphs. Please explain to me how an ongoing investigation, an article you posted that FLAT OUT says not to rush to judgement, is now official?

 

[Uiler]

People keep on saying that the difference between the US military and others is that the US at least investigates and punishes actions like this. However, note:

1. There is increasing evidence that there was a cover-up.
2. The US military investigation only started once reporters started doing their own investigations and released the news into the press.

Hardly proactive.

As for punishing. One of the worse US military massacres of all time was the My Lai massacre. Here is the list of punishment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_lai_(massacre)

On March 17, 1970, the United States Army charged 14 officers with suppressing information related to the incident. Most of these charges were dropped.

U.S. Army Lt. William Calley was convicted in 1971 of premeditated murder in ordering the shootings and initially sentenced to life in prison; two days later, however, President Richard Nixon ordered him released from prison, pending appeal of his sentence. Calley served 3½ years of house arrest in his quarters at Fort Benning, Georgia, and was then ordered freed by Federal Judge J. Robert Elliot. Calley claimed that he was following orders from his captain, Ernest Medina; Medina denied giving the orders and was acquitted at a separate trial. Most of the soldiers involved in the My Lai incident were no longer enlisted. Of the 26 men initially charged, Lt. Calley's was the only conviction. The entire episode inspired what is known today as the Medina standard.

That is, a single person got charged and convicted. Everyone else was never charged or convicted. And once the press heat had gone, the single person charged and convicted was released after only a couple of days in jail. This was for actions described as:

The soldiers found no insurgents in the village on the morning of March 16, 1968. The soldiers, one platoon of which was led by Lt. William Calley, killed hundreds of civilians – primarily old men, women, children, and babies. Some were tortured or raped. Dozens were herded into a ditch and executed with automatic firearms. At one stage, Calley expressed his intent to throw hand grenades into a trench filled with villagers.[1]

The precise number reported killed varies from source to source, with 347 and 504 being the most commonly cited figures. A memorial at the site of the massacre lists 504 names, with ages ranging from 1 year to 82 years of age. According to the report of a South Vietnamese army lieutenant to his superiors, it was an "atrocious" incident of bloodletting by an armed force seeking to vent its fury.

The US military track record of "punishing" soldiers that participate in massacres seems to be more, "We'll pretend to do something while the press heat is on us and as soon as it is gone we'll release the few people who went to prison and pretend nothing happened."

I'm not expecting great things from the US military in their "investigation" and "court-martial" of the soldiers involved in this massacre. Basically the chances of any conviction depends on whether Americans have forgotten about the massacre by the time it goes to trial. The chances of anyone convicted actually serving their time or being executed also seems to depend on how long this massacre stays in the public eye. I'm not expecting Americans to care for very long.

On the bright side of things, apparently there is not as much fallout in Iraq as expected because everyone in Iraq believes this is par for the course for American soliders. According to popular Iraqi belief it's perfectly normal for American soldiers to shoot a mother and child on their knees begging for their lives. Hell, even the politicians aren't bothering to use it. Rejoice Americans, your reputation amongst Iraqis is so bad that even evidence (including photos) of ruthless massacres of old men, women and children are not considered news. "This is normal for American soliders." I think you're in a lot of trouble in Iraq. Really really deep trouble. When your reputation is *this* bad I'm not seeing how any PR is going to get you out of it.

 

[blackheart]

That's just the first five paragraphs. Please explain to me how an ongoing investigation, an article you posted that FLAT OUT says not to rush to judgement, is now official?

Because that's what the CNN headline said and I copied the exact headline?

 

[zulu9812]

Whilst we're on the subject of US soldiers deliberately killing Iraq civilians, check out this story - US-Iraqi row over 'mosque massacre'

 

[CaptainF]

Well, there you go. America likes to CYA its villains. Thats why the International Criminal Court is a no no.

 

[Sidhe]

Maybe an impartial group should investigate and see what the hell the whole truth is on either side? You sure as hell aren't going to get an impartial view from the US military or the Islamic groups. I suspect they screwed up, but the whys and the werefores are a bit cloudy. I too think this will be burried though eventually but am hoping that if there is a significant war crime here those involved are made to pay, justice being served will pay better dividends than a military coverup IMO.

 

[Rossiya]

Did the same sort of thing happen in Vietnam?

 

[blackheart]

Did the same sort of thing happen in Vietnam?

On a more disgusting scale. It was called the My Lai Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai

 

[Rossiya]

On a more disgusting scale. It was called the My Lai Massacre

Ive looked at the link. How can those animals that call themselves "soldiers" slay so many innocent woman and children? The american people at that time must have been ashamed to be american, to be countrymen with those sadistic barbarians.

Terrible. Shocking. Outrageous.

 

[.Shane.]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/29/marines.haditha/index.html

Just an FYI.

Oh, just noticed this, kind of a side-story:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/29/marines.haditha.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest

 

[Neomega]

That's just the first five paragraphs. Please explain to me how an ongoing investigation, an article you posted that FLAT OUT says not to rush to judgement, is now official?

This is regarding the big question... was there a cover up, as far as it being a massacre, it has pretty much already been acknowledged by the Pentagon as a massacre of innocent civilians. To much evidence that could leak out and ruin credibility to deny it.

 

[VoodooAce]

The way these things seem to go is that the military finds out what happened, they investigate it, but they also cover it up.

I just saw a reporter claiming that the military tried to intimidate him into not pushing the story, but he went ahead anyway. It was only because of the courage of reporters pushing the story, that we learn of this.

So, yeah, the military does investigate it to a point, but we'd never know anything about it if they had their way. Can we trust them to do a complete investigation? Maybe. Can we trust them to disclose everything? Heck no. They'll only disclose something if they feel it will come out anyway, which this story seems to confirm.

I would ask how often this kind of thing happens that we never hear about it?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Next time Im accused of murder, Im sure I'll be allowed to investigate myself to determine if there was any wrong doing[/sarcasm]

 

[blackheart]

So much for the much vaulted impartiality of a military court investigating its own crimes.

 

[MobBoss]

Quick update to this. I was just watching CNN during lunch and they had a story on this. Apparently, the initial reports of this incident came directly from the marines detailed to clean the place up after the fact. They had an interview with one Marines mom who said he son was part of the clean up crew and he was horrified at what he saw.

I find it highly likely that this issue was most likely being looked at by the Marines and the Navy from the beginning. As for a cover up, that could very well just be the initial report of the very marines who did the crime. Needless to say, I dont think that initial report survived the initial BS sniff test, even by Marine standards.

I certainly hope two things come out in this. First, that the Marine command structure did not attempt to cover this up after it happened and second, that those found guilty will be punished to the fullest extent of military judicial law.

And for those who keeping putting in links to My Lai give it a break. That was 40 years ago. While bad things do happen in war and sometimes those responsible even get away with it, that is still no reason to blame soldiers today of what happened 40 years ago. Thats like holding the German Army today responsible for warcrimes commited in WWII. The US Military recognizes that My Lai was a black mark in its history and has no desire to see such again.