OT Changes Q&A

[Eran of Arcadia]

I've infracted plenty of posts that made points that I agreed with, or that were flaming posters/posts I disagreed with.

We are capable of some measure of objectivity, believe it or not.

 

[Patroklos]

Some things are blatant, the rest of the meat is irrelevant at some point.

That does not mean in instances when there is no readily idendifiable infraction moderators do not act in defense of other posters, and that is where problems lie. The near universiality of this impression should give pause.

 

[downtown]

Let me be honest here, the level of bellyaching about points is crazy to me.

Nobody who is really innocent gets banned. If you stick around here long enough, you're going to get away with some posts that you should have been infracted for, and you're going to get a few points that maybe you don't deserve. If you aren't being a douchebag, it balances out, and you never get banned.

I've been here for what, six years now? I've flamed dozens of people, been in hundreds of arguments, thrown in the zingers, and I've had maybe 6, 7 points...ever? LOTS of posters are the same way.

Look, if you get a questionable point, it isn't a gross miscarriage of justice. It's a freakin' point on an internet forum, it'll go away in a few days. If you're getting enough points that you are close to a ban, just relax and take it easy for a few days, or stop threadjacking EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. YOU. POST. You all know who you are.

This website is run my amateurs. We get what we pay for. You want professional moderation run by an impeccable legal system? Pay a user fee.

 

[Camikaze]

Staff routinely get simultaneously accused of both trying to 'stamp out the left' and 'get rid of everyone on the right' (although to be fair I don't recall anyone saying we're looking for a purge of centrists). This is why there are multiple moderators with multiple countries with multiple perspectives. And why moderators often report posts for discussion before acting. And why that discussion actually takes place. And why there is a review system. A moderator cannot infract someone secretly; all infractions are automatically given their own thread in the staff forum. As BJ said earlier, different moderators coming from different perspectives may see a post differently (because we aren't clones), but that's precisely why we have other moderators to ensure that we're actually moderating based on the same set of rules. Variance is more likely to come in severity of punishment.

BTW, although this really applies to all infractions in general ('consensus decision making' is the rule), we've made a specific in-house policy to automatically have a double-check for the infractions in question for this thread (prior to an infraction being issued, in most cases). These permanent points won't be coming from an individual moderator so much as from the OT moderator group as a whole.

(Edit: crosspost with downtown)

 

[IglooDame]

You were a moderator during a much more civilized time on this board. Its been several years since you were in a position to make observations from that vantage point relevant to this discussion, with all due respect.

Can you honestly say you have inside knowledge of any infractions recently? That is really the source of some of the angst against moderation. Some of us have been here for 10 years without changing our style of posting. In many cases going from valued long standing memeber of the community to paria infracted without cause or reason was an arbitrary application of moderators personalities, not anything a poster did differently.

Note mods, he brought his personal experiances as a moderator into the discussion, I am limiting my addressing him personally to that specifically volunteered information.

No disrespect taken. No, I've not been in the staff lounge in the last year and change, you're certainly correct in that point. However, the supermods/admins now and a fair number of the moderators themselves are the same ones I worked with; I think it is possible but unlikely that the moderating team has developed such a sea change in attitude from the arrival of new moderators. One thing that has changed since I was moderating was a recent general OT crackdown alongside a moderator "surge". It is possible that you're seeing increased infractions and tightened rules not because the moderators have started defending their buddies and dislike you, but because the rules in general tightened up and your posting style has historically been closer to the line than most.

And yes, mods feeling that I'm trolling for PDMA or anything like that, please bear in mind that we have not referenced specific actions here and are merely discussing moderating/posting styles in general.

 

[Catharsis]

(although to be fair I don't recall anyone saying we're looking for a purge of centrists)

That's because you've already got rid of all the centrists.

(Don't put centrists in a forced labour camp! They will injure themselves sitting on the barbed-wire fence.)

 

[El_Machinae]

Moderator Action: accidental posts and topic-drift deleted

 

[useless]

If i get permapoints, what the hell is the incentive to bother trying anymore? It's a joke. It's ridiculous.

 

[GhostWriter16]

If i get permapoints, what the hell is the incentive to bother trying anymore? It's a joke. It's ridiculous.

The mods want to get rid of some people's posting style, and whether the user gets stripped away with them is more or less irrelevant.

 

[useless]

Oh wait, there is no incentive, no actual reason to even bother, to even try.

You seem intent on getting rid of me. Just permaban me or something.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It should work this way, it does not work this way. In reality mods don't over rule each other, they think it undermines their authority. The most heinous abuses are always sanctioned. Your only hope is to convince the actual infracting mod, nobody is going to go over their head.

You never know what mod is going to infract you, what subject might set them off, or in a lot of cases which of their poster buddies they are defending.

For the most part you are wrong. Many of the reported posts are reviewed by 3-4 mods before any action or none is taken. And no one is defending their buddies.

In the 10 years, you've been here, I've been here too. It is not the same forum now as then. It has grown and changed as the users have grown and changed. The moderation has grown and changed too as it tries to keep up.

If i get permapoints, what the hell is the incentive to bother trying anymore? It's a joke. It's ridiculous.

Oh wait, there is no incentive, no actual reason to even bother, to even try.

You seem intent on getting rid of me. Just permaban me or something.

As you know very well, if you can manage your posts for six months, you can get off the list. If you cannot, then you will accumulate permanent points and end up with your username being banned for good. The question for all of those on the list is whether or not they can control what they post. If that is too difficult, then, yes, you may be doomed.

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Some trolling and spam deleted, thread reopened.

 

[LucyDuke]

Are permanent points removed after those 6-month reviews?

 

[Camikaze]

It'll be case by case, but if someone is removed from this system, then I imagine so, yes, as the permanent points will in that case no longer serve a purpose.

 

[Perfection]

One thing that I don't care for about permanent points is that they run on the same system as regular points, and that could lead to some weird situations with ban thresholds. I mean let's say I have 7 permapoints and am trying to be good, if I get a single point infraction, I end up getting banned. I would be very tempted to make sure that I always have temporary points or upgrade to 8 permapoints to avoid bans.

 

[Camikaze]

If someone wants to try and collect that extra permanent point to put them over the threshold, because they'd prefer to take a one or two week ban now rather than later, there's not much we can do to stop them. It's not really gaming the system, though, because it's still moving the poster closer to a permanent ban.

 

[LucyDuke]

It pretty much turns into the same problem with that proposed new points system, doesn't it? Maybe temp points and permapoints should sum to their own separate ban thresholds? It's definitely counterproductive to have a system that incentivizes rule-breaking.

 

[Camikaze]

Well it only incentivises it to the extent that posters don't mind accumulating permanent infractions. If someone on 7 permanent points wants to get to 10 before that's further away from 15 than 7 is from 8, then they might see an incentive to break the rules at that stage, but all they've really done is move themselves closer to a permanent ban. It doesn't really affect us if they decide to take that one week ban earlier; their best strategy with permanent points is still not to accumulate any at all. And in either case, if we can see that someone is attempting to 'game the system' in such a way, then they're apparently not changing in the way we want them to, so are far less likely to be seen favourably at the six month mark. There is incentive in the system to keep staff happy, too.

 

[JollyRoger]

As you know very well, if you can manage your posts for six months, you can get off the list.

Has anyone on the list "managed" their posts for 6 months? If so, were such "managers" removed from the list?