I've made it crystal-clear all along how I feel about this issue. Feel free to re-read my comments and ask me to clarify anything that doesn't seem clear to you.
OT Reorganization - Vote now.
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- Start date
Midnight-Blue766
The filidh that cam frae Skye
So when will this be implemented?
Oh dear, I'm on the wrong side of the law!
I haven't yet voted, mostly because this sub isn't bookmarked on my desktops, but it is on my mobile - which doesn't display polls. Terrible reason, but there it is
I'm for desegregation, even though I expect it will require more work from "us" moderators.
I liked the RD format and was moderately against the April Fool's split. Not so much that I got bent out of shape over it, but I did feel it to be unnecessary. Reintegration makes sense to me when we're talking about The Tavern and The Chamber.
... Which is all we're talking about here, Valka.
Thank you for being open and transparent with your views on this.
I think the "why" of the vote is important.
plastiqe
Grinch
"Lemme 'splain. No, there is too much, lemme sum up."From the opening post and then first page of the OT Survey Results:
(by the way, if there was ever a candidate for a Chamber thread... OT Survey Results would've been perfect)
: P
Then, in
Off Topic reorganization - Call for Comments my count of the replies that "voted" were:- Just Tavern: 2
- No RD: 5
- No Change: 5
- Merge: 7
- Yes RD: 6
So I agree that it seems like the fix was in based on the interpretation of the OT Survey. Probably a good bit of discussion went on beforehand in a private section and it probably didn't need to be private.
What I would have done is start by laying out what the problem is that you're trying to fix. As I see it, it's lack of traffic in the Chamber.... Tavern is doing fine, right? Then if the OT Survey questions were too vague, you could specifically ask for replies on "how would you fix it"? Setting goals for what you wanna accomplish is nice too:
But, at least from my point of view, that is already what you have with a Tavern and a Chamber. Serious or fun discussions are welcome, and the serious ones don't get swept under by the fun ones because they each have their own sections.
For the record, I'm not trying to be for or against the establishment here. Despite being critical I really do respect the volunteers that put so much effort in to keep this place running, because I realize we're all basically here because we like CFC. Feedback section is one of the ones I check so I guess you could say I'm a fan of this issue. : )
I personally voted No in this thread. Chamber exists and people are using it; I haven't seen any justification to take it away (rhyming slogans don't count). I'd rather try to think of ways to improve Chamber traffic like by moving around the way subforums are located a little bit.
I sound mean every time I say something similar to what I'm about to say, but you seem to be implying that there is some sort of democracy here. Admittedly, Thunderfall is (by proxy) exercising his property rights in such a way as to allow for a vote in this particular case, but that doesn't make this a completely democratic process. Agenda-setting (which moderators don't have a complete monopoly on, given people can suggest things in Site Feedback) and vetoing are things that Thunderfall's staff retain in order to exercise those property rights.
I would like you to clarify whether you are basing your vote on what would be good for the membership, or on what you'd enjoy more (which may include a consideration of what is good for the membership)? This poll is asking about what you personally want, not about what you think would make other people happy. Otherwise the correct answer to the poll would evidently be 'yes', unless you assume you know what would make people who have chosen that option happy better than those people themselves. What you personally want may or may not take into account what makes other people happy.
If I were to vote in the poll, I would vote on the basis of which system I would enjoy most. Given my enjoyment of OT(s) is somewhat dependent on how easy it is to moderate, that will necessarily impact upon my vote, and I don't see why it should be any more irrelevant than anyone else's personal reasons for enjoying the forum.
The poll still has a week to run. I believe the only target that has currently been set is 'by the end of the year', though hopefully this will be resolved before then.
I am basing my vote on a combination of what I personally want, plus what would be good for a particular subsection of people, plus other considerations. Part of what I want is dependent on whether or not the staff decides to merge other forums with OT later. You know how I feel about that (at least I hope I don't need to go over it yet again here). Therefore, if I knew what the staff is likely to do (because in any situation like this, there is always the chance of "we know what most of you voted for; we are therefore doing the opposite anyway" occurring), I wouldn't be genuinely undecided. Because there isn't any way to vote "undecided" without being disrespectfully mixed in with the apathetic "I don't care" vote, in good conscience I had to vote No.
So for me, on behalf of myself and taking into consideration the concerns of some other forum members, a No vote was the correct one. Please note that I have no idea if any of those members have voted, and of course I would expect them to vote the way that suits their own concerns.
As for having a Red Diamond thread and a non-Red Diamond thread on the exact same topic in the same forum, I consider that ridiculous and a good way for some people to get infracted because they might post a non-serious reply in the wrong thread by accident. At least if they're in separate forums, there's less chance of accidentally doing something like this (I haven't personally, but I recognize the chance that it could happen, and probably already has).
plastiqe
Grinch
Camikaze, I wouldn't say I was implying there is a democracy on CFC. When I wrote that the moderators are like the legislative and the judicial that would imply the opposite. I realize full well how an online forum works, all I can really do is post.
In all the threads I've read (including this one) I haven't seen anywhere close to a majority of people asking for a return to the glorious age of the Red Diamonds. Survey says:
Q. Why is this the only proposal being discussed/voted on?
A. Because it's what the agenda-setters want to do. : /
Anyways, even if I disagree with the conclusion presented, at this point there won't be much change in the ratio of votes so I guess it's so long Chamber, hello Red Diamonds.
Maybe somebody should hand out fliers. : P
******************************************************
If I wanted to find out where the OT communities stand on this threads proposal, I would make a clear, concise, official poll like this:
Option1: merge Tavern and Chamber
Option2: merge T&C, bring back Red Diamond threads
Option3: keep Tavern and Chamber separate
Option4: other (tell us)
I'd post one version in Tavern and an identical version in Chamber so that I'd get separate feedback from both areas. If you're saying there can be a non-RD thread and an RD thread on the same topic then there can be a non-RD poll and an RD poll (it's respectful to both sides). I would just include some quick facts in the OP, like maybe the red diamond rule, a brief timeline and some relevant links. Then, if I was a big supporter of the Red Diamond system, I'd be prepared to answer any/all questions & concerns that come up.
In all the threads I've read (including this one) I haven't seen anywhere close to a majority of people asking for a return to the glorious age of the Red Diamonds. Survey says:
- Reunite the OTs ~50% (Bring back RD ~18%)
- Now is good ~13%
- No explicit mention on the split issue : ~37 %.
Q. Why is this the only proposal being discussed/voted on?
A. Because it's what the agenda-setters want to do. : /
Anyways, even if I disagree with the conclusion presented, at this point there won't be much change in the ratio of votes so I guess it's so long Chamber, hello Red Diamonds.
Maybe somebody should hand out fliers. : P
Spoiler :
******************************************************
If I wanted to find out where the OT communities stand on this threads proposal, I would make a clear, concise, official poll like this:
Option1: merge Tavern and Chamber
Option2: merge T&C, bring back Red Diamond threads
Option3: keep Tavern and Chamber separate
Option4: other (tell us)
I'd post one version in Tavern and an identical version in Chamber so that I'd get separate feedback from both areas. If you're saying there can be a non-RD thread and an RD thread on the same topic then there can be a non-RD poll and an RD poll (it's respectful to both sides). I would just include some quick facts in the OP, like maybe the red diamond rule, a brief timeline and some relevant links. Then, if I was a big supporter of the Red Diamond system, I'd be prepared to answer any/all questions & concerns that come up.
We have determined that OTers prefer Tavern-level moderation to Chamber-level, so I guess merging them with the RD to appease the minority might be a sensible step. Now we need to determine just how popular Tavern-level moderation really is. I would suggest keeping the merged forum named the Tavern and then create the Basement with an even lesser degree of moderation. We might just find that Tavern-level of moderation isn't as popular as some think.
plastiqe
Grinch
You could just take the Diamond system a step further and create a Green Diamond for Tavern threads with Basement level standards. Then you'd have full spectrum visceral us vs them representation. It'd probably be a really popular symbol.
The Stable?
Icon =
The way to keep RD threads from sinking off the front page is to sort by tag. Other moderators know more about this than I do, so address follow up questions to them
Icon =
The way to keep RD threads from sinking off the front page is to sort by tag. Other moderators know more about this than I do, so address follow up questions to them
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Can we perhaps make the red diamond a little smaller?
It is rather oogly.
I'd do away with the red diamond all together, doesn't have anything to do with stricter moderation. I'd pick a monocle. Or a library. Or a gavel. Or North Korea.
It is rather oogly.
I'd do away with the red diamond all together, doesn't have anything to do with stricter moderation. I'd pick a monocle. Or a library. Or a gavel. Or North Korea.
plastiqe
Grinch
I'd do away with the red diamonds too. : P
Though since it would have a different use from the rest of the regular icons a big notable shape is ok as the symbol. I could see using a shield instead of a diamond if you wanted a different aesthetic. I agree that labeling it the "serious" icon is a bit misleading. Ideally it would be called what it does so I'd rename it "Firm Moderation" or something along those lines - though any change would be CFC wide.
This is in the Civ5 theme zip.A gavel or North Korean flag may be appropriate, but a monocle or library would not, because RDs are very much going to be about levels of moderation, not how high brow or esoteric a discussion is.
We're unwilling to do away with the option for normal moderation. People aren't forced to use RDs, but they are there for those that want them.
I've been on this board for over 10 years 
Don't post much but lurk often. We need to get back to the old OT. I mean the real old OT - before Science and History were carved off into their own sub-forums and became their own quiet billabongs. A comprehensive OT makes for a lively OT. I remember when......
Don't post much but lurk often. We need to get back to the old OT. I mean the real old OT - before Science and History were carved off into their own sub-forums and became their own quiet billabongs. A comprehensive OT makes for a lively OT. I remember when......
It's also the icon moderators can click on to give infractions
Then maybe you need a new icon for that, if it's apt to cause confusion.
I've been on this board for over 10 years
An all inclusive place is very appealing.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
I've been on this board for over 10 years
Yeah, you nailed it. Very well put, and very very true.
IMO, this is not the way to go. RD threads were tried before and I did not think they were particularly effective. What needs to be done is to split OT on content, not requested moderation status. I'm also fine with just merging it back to the way things were.
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