Paris burning

[aneeshm]

"culturally backward and civilisationally inferior" - what a piece of crap!

Tell me this - if the place the immigrants came from was culturally progressive , or civilisationally superior ( or rather , more advanced , more developed ) , would they come to France at all ?

 

[Skirmisher]

But how does police or military oppression solve the long term issues?

Maybe it can bring security in the short term, but it hardly solves the problem with lack of jobs.

Are the immigrant and poor neighbourhoods in Los Angeles better off now than they were before the LA riots, when the National Guard was ordered in?

 

[klazlo]

Tell me this - if the place the immigrants came from was culturally progressive , or civilisationally superior ( or rather , more advanced , more developed ) , would they come to France at all ?

If you would say "economically" superior or inferior (or even more accurately: more or less developed) that's a valid statement. Culture makes you different and not inferior. The problem is that their cultural difference makes them to be considered as inferiors by the majority population - but in this case the problem is in the majority population.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

That's very easy to say on a message board. Now start doing some math.

L.A., population 10 million.: Traditional riot limited to a few neighborhoods.
Level of force required to 'lockdown' the affected area: ~10000 soldiers and law enforcement officers.

Paris, population 20 million: Distributed riot spanning dozens of neighborhoods.
Level of force required to 'lockdown' affected area: ?

The only thing we can say for sure it that it will be large. Very, very large. And very, very expensive. I know France is absolutely flush with extra money and soldiers these days, but even so, I can understand the reluctance of politicians to begin filling the streets of their capital with military equipment.

Now, that said, this has to be brought under control. If the police aren't able to adapt to the new tactics of the troublemakers, then brute force will have to suffice. But France is going to suffer mightily if she goes down that road.

At this point, its going to cost money whether or not brute force is used. Cost shouldnt enter into this at all, in any way shape or form. We're talking about fundemental law and order here, the basics. A government that cant provide that is doomed. If in fact, the government is restraining its response because of financial reasons (which personally, I doubt), then it has to be removed from office as quickly as possible. Letting the riots continue to spread and escalate in violence, in the hope that eventually the militants will get tired and stop the attacks, is no strategy.

 

[Skirmisher]

Tell me this - if the place the immigrants came from was culturally progressive , or civilisationally superior ( or rather , more advanced , more developed ) , would they come to France at all ?

Actually some of modern France's greatest philosphers were born in Northern Africa.

Derrida and Camus were born in and lived in Northen Africa before they came to France.

 

[kryszcztov]

Dear Mr. 'Bleeding Heart Idealist' kryszcztov,

Tell me where I sound 'idealist'... Where do you sound 'black & white' ? When someone says the West isn't superior, you only hear "the West is inferior", which angers you and for once makes you lose your cynicism.

Coming from a country that made several failed attempts at world empire,

Thanks, it serves my point. Every nation fails in the end.

I guess you can be forgiven such ire and insolence.

What does my nationality have to do with my argumentation ?

So I refer you in turn
to your history books - And tell me where any nation has stopped using
the same tactics to attain power and prestige?

They used to call it colonialism, surely - But what do we call the smash
and grab that the USA and cohorts carried out in Iraq? Pre-emptive war?

Nice name, but the same result...Grabbing the spoils while treading on the weak.

That's right, and in the end those nations which pursue power through same means fail... It's just a matter of time for the USA by the way.

Perhaps in your rosy, leftist world, all nations are fair players and nice.
But take a look outside and you might see that the world is run by the
same harsh and unfair mechanisms that have been in place for many eras.

It seems you like labels and the political conservatism of the past. Leftist ? since when am I labelled as a leftist ? I have never voted ! And I don't see why depicting the world as a place where unfair mechanisms rule contradicts my point. Oh yeah, the West is currently richer than the Third World. Is this what you mean by "superior" ? Has it always been the same BTW ? Need I send you back to the crusade times ?

You are viewing the world from a intoxicated and defunct liberalist view.

Please stop that ! I thought I was a leftist, and now I'm a liberal... You're confusing me, it's horrible !

Hmmm....I see you assumed to use the royal 'we', a sure sign of dementia.

Just to make fun of you through the cliché of a formal letter. I hope that after 20,000 posts of cynicism on this board, you can take a little mockery with some pleasure. And I even changed one "I" to "we" (that wasn't natural).

When I speak, I speak in deadly earnest...Very little of what I say is meant as a joke.

This isn't how I hear it. Note the change from your first posts in this thread to the one that I later quoted : cynicism gone, unveiling flat arguments that have lost their humour to stand up against the opposition. You felt asleep once, and that was sufficient to charge.

If there are any clowns around, it is those who like to make personal attacks on posters.

No, because I have a mirror, so that's you. [damn, there is a young boy voice in my head, aaargh !]

So if these lame stabs at my posts are all you have, please don't make the effort!

Read my other posts, that was almost the only time I answered you so far.

I am having a nice day. No civil disorder here in the UK!

Hope you don't get lynched by rioting muslims!

No problem here as well. As said several times in this thread.

 

[Little Raven]

At this point, its going to cost money whether or not brute force is used. Cost shouldnt enter into this at all, in any way shape or form.

Well, at least your liberal credentials remain sterling. Cost always enters into it, my friend. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

The costs are more than just financial, though. There's a matter of raising a force big enough to secure that much territory. There are issues of jurisdiction and command, policy and goals. These are not simple concepts that can be successfully worked out on the fly. France is facing something that no country has ever faced before. Let's not fall over ourselves in shock because they fail to successfully deal with it in two weeks.

Letting the riots continue to spread and escalate in violence, in the hope that eventually the militants will get tired and stop the attacks, is no strategy.

On this we agree. Order must be restored. That may require the brute force approach. But France needs to be aware that brute force is a very short term solution. If you have to outspend your opponent a hundred to one in order to stay even, long term success is doubtful.

 

[Masquerouge]

Actually some of modern France's greatest philosphers were born in Northern Africa.

Derrida and Camus were born in and lived in Northen Africa before they came to France.

It was actually when Algeria was a French colony and Derrida and Camus were born from French colons, so I would say this does not count

 

[kryszcztov]

Tell me this - if the place the immigrants came from was culturally progressive , or civilisationally superior ( or rather , more advanced , more developed ) , would they come to France at all ?

It is almost all about money. Making money. Improving oneself's living conditions. Otherwise many of them would stay in their beloved country. I don't think immigrants come to France because of France's culture, or France's military might, or what else...? BTW it's exactly the same in the USA. It is about making money. You can brag about it is about freedom and democracy and stuff, the first thing someone wants is money. MONEY.

France is facing something that no country has ever faced before. Let's not fall over ourselves in shock because they fail to successfully deal with it in two weeks.

Yup, I'm starting to believe this too. This is a rather new kind of uprising. So far the government doesn't want to dive into a bloodshed, I can give that to them at least. Little Raven has a very accurate view of the situation actually, like TheDuckOfFlanders. Maybe guys you should provide us with your regular sources, so that people aren't biaised with silly information written down to make money ?

 

[betazed]

If you have to outspend your opponent a hundred to one in order to stay even, long term success is doubtful.

Which seemingly is an exceedingly difficult concept to grasp, because it has not dawned on a lot of people (especially ones on this side of the pond).

 

[Verbose]

Tell me this - if the place the immigrants came from was culturally progressive , or civilisationally superior ( or rather , more advanced , more developed ) , would they come to France at all ?

If they originally lived in a RICH country, of course they wouldn't.

They came because they were poor, living in poor countries and lacked access to resources like land, money of education. If they don't for it for purely political reasons that's usually why people migrate

These "riots" (for want of a better word) is about poverty and unemployment.
Religion, culture, civilisation, whatever you want to call it, doesn't really enter into this.

The crumbling French suburbs are filled with N. Africans, who also happen to be Muslim, because they were the latest group to arrive.

And of course it's now a problem that these people, with little education, came to work in the industry in the 60's.

If we could choose today we would of course only accept wealthy people with at least a BA from a respectable university. (Like Canada does.)

But in the 60's that wasn't an issue since what was needed were ordinary joes willing to work on the assembly line.

Now the industry jobs are gone but neither these people, nor their kids now torching things, had anything like a preparedness for how to deal with the new situation.
The rioters aren't really from somewhere else, they are a French homegrown problem.

And it is the failure of French society that the children of the 60's immigrants have been allowed to grow up without enough education to make it out of the ghetto — occasionally the French education system brings forth and example of dazzling academic success, which can then be hailed as the proof that the system "works", while ignoring that 90% of the persons mates are still stuck in Nohopeville.

That's what some far-sighted politician (if they exist) should have recognised 20 years ago, to make sure that at least young people weren't stuck in these neighbourhoods with no real tools to get themselves out of there.

 

[klazlo]

If they originally lived in a RICH country, of course they wouldn't.

They came because they were poor, living in poor countries and lacked access to resources like land, money of education. If they don't for it for purely political reasons that's usually why people migrate

These "riots" (for want of a better word) is about poverty and unemployment.
Religion, culture, civilisation, whatever you want to call it, doesn't really enter into this.

The crumbling French suburbs are filled with N. Africans, who also happen to be Muslim, because they were the latest group to arrive.

And of course it's now a problem that these people, with little education, came to work in the industry in the 60's.

If we could choose today we would of course only accept wealthy people with at least a BA from a respectable university. (Like Canada does.)

But in the 60's that wasn't an issue since what was needed were ordinary joes willing to work on the assembly line.

Now the industry jobs are gone but neither these people, nor their kids now torching things, had anything like a preparedness for how to deal with the new situation.
The rioters aren't really from somewhere else, they are a French homegrown problem.

And it is the failure of French society that the children of the 60's immigrants have been allowed to grow up without enough education to make it out of the ghetto — occasionally the French education system brings forth and example of dazzling academic success, which can then be hailed as the proof that the system "works", while ignoring that 90% of the persons mates are still stuck in Nohopeville.

That's what some far-sighted politician (if they exist) should have recognised 20 years ago, to make sure that at least young people weren't stuck in these neighbourhoods with no real tools to get themselves out of there.

Exactly. There's only one point I debate: in this case the culture/religion has a lot to explain. These people are in the underclass because due to their culture and ethnic differences the society had much more difficulty to integrate them. Actually it did not do it at all. Also, their ethnicity offer an easy scapegoat. And the problem simply reproduces itself with every generation.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Dear Mr. Curt 'Black & White' Sibling,

In today's globalized world, there is no such thing as superior or inferior civilizations. Saying the West isn't superior doesn't imply that the West is inferior. Please refer to your college maths before making stupid assumptions.

Thank you for reactibng there ,although it's already a few pages ago ,this topic is hot is was only gone for a few hours.

I tend to get sick of people who turn others their words around ,as you noted ,this isn't the first time Curt does something like that.But indeed his world seemingly aint one of many nuancations.

So let me give you a hand:

You are viewing the world from a intoxicated and defunct liberalist view.

Damn you curt ,are you now going to call everyone who disagrees with you a "pinko liberal pot smoking defunct hippy"?Learn to nuancate ,i bet kryszcztov is a very nuancating man who is hard to order in any shelf ,personally i have liberal tendency's ,but other oppinions of mine borders more to concervatism.I think we are what is called in politics more PRAGMATIC people ,that is we analyse a situation at hand withough ideological reservations and purely look for a constructive sollution.

In any case ,marking people in shelves ,even as easy as you tend to do it ,is kinda annoying and even somewhat insulting.Let me dig up a quote:

"If i give food to the poor ,they call me a saint.When i ask WHY the poor are poor ,they call me a communist."

Anyway ,i agree with the analisys of an other poster here that the rioters are simply hard to deal with because of the non--confrontial method's.However this just makes the problem worse i guess.If these rioters are going to specialize in "guerilla rioting" this won't be over soon.

Now there are also reports of minimal skirmisches of the same kind in Belgium and Germany ,however minimal lets hope it stays that way.

I have seen ,on tv ,by now multiple comments of more adult people in the cité's ,and it seems that there is a solid base of support there for the rioters ,while most adults disagree with the method's they do tend to agree that it's the fault of failed policy's ,ghetto creation ,unemployment etc thatlead these youngsters in this direction ,in any case by the volume of rioters it's easy to deduct that atleast something must be fundamentaly wrong.

Most remarkable was a story of a man ,who had lived 10 years in one of the Cité's and managed to get out of it.He worked in a factory near the cité's and that very factory was burned down a few days ago.Though this man had lost his job ,something that would heavily affect him financially ,he nevertheless had some symphaty for the rioters ,having lived there himself he testified that circumstances were fairly deplorable there ,that he was happy for his own family ,especially his kids ,that he had managed to get out of there.

Btw ,i heard the muslim community has given a reaction to this violence ,condemning it ,atleast a muslim communal organization in France ,forgot the name.So let this not be forgotten ,muslims have condemned this ,don't go seeking again in the "it's all the muslims fault" argument.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well, at least your liberal credentials remain sterling. Cost always enters into it, my friend. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

I never said it would be free, but at least in my opinion, when youre dealing with a massive breakdown in law and order, a government has a duty to act first, and then let the accountants take over later and figure out how its going to be paid for. A government that doesnt step in forcefully to ensure security for its citizens is doomed to be removed from office, and wont be in charge of the nations finances anymore anyway. So might as well err on the side of restoring stability to the nation, IMO.

The costs are more than just financial, though. There's a matter of raising a force big enough to secure that much territory. There are issues of jurisdiction and command, policy and goals.

Again, Im not advocating the establishment of a police state with a tank on every corner all over France. A big show of force in certain key areas could have the effect of convincing militants in the rest of the country that the party is over and its time to lay down their arms.

These are not simple concepts that can be successfully worked out on the fly.

Establishing order using force shouldnt be a new concept that has to be thought up on the fly. France hasnt wargamed breakdowns in law and order, urban guerilla warfare? I doubt that very much. Theyve got the plans, what they lack is the cojones to implement them.

France is facing something that no country has ever faced before. Let's not fall over ourselves in shock because they fail to successfully deal with it in two weeks.

Again, this is most definitely NOT new. Its what we've been watching in Iraq for a few years now. Extremists all over the world have been watching and learning from what the Iraqi insurgents have been doing in Bagdhad. If Western governments havent been watching and learning too, then they havent been doing their job.

If you have to outspend your opponent a hundred to one in order to stay even, long term success is doubtful.

If you hesitate to strike against your opponent because youre worried about the cost, then long term success is definitely impossible, not just 'doubtfull'.

 

[Little Raven]

Again, this is most definitely NOT new. Its what we've been watching in Iraq for a few years now.

*sigh* No, it isn't. And the fact that you think what's happening in Paris is anything like what's happening in Iraq shows how completely out of touch you are on this issue. Seriously, man, you're better than this.

Iraq is in full-scale insurgency. Over 50 people have been killed or injured this week alone, and it's only Monday.

Paris has been 'burning' for almost two weeks now. Exactly one person has been killed. They are not the same.

Yes, order has to be restored. I don't think anyone disputes that. The dispute is over how. It's one thing to sit behind a monitor and demand the army roll in and shoot anyone who looks at them funny. It's quite another to try and figure out how to deploy limited forces throughout a city of 20 million people in a manner that is both effective and humane. And it's vital that force deployment be done right, because the technology that allows people to do this sort of thing isn't going away, and lockdown cannot be maintained indefinitely. If you do it wrong, even if you succeed in restoring order over the short term, you could produce much bigger headaches for yourself down the line.

I understand a new plan is supposed to be unveiled soon. We'll see what it is.

 

[Urederra]

Two Paris suburb authorities has now decided to invoke a curfew, starting midnight.

The youth say they want jobs, and an end to racism, and the opposition wants Sarkozy's head on the end of a pole. Now, I don't know if it would look good, though.

Somebody, apart trom Masquerouge, has been playing Civ IV for too long.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

*sigh* No, it isn't. And the fact that you think what's happening in Paris is anything like what's happening in Iraq shows how completely out of touch you are on this issue.
Iraq is in full-scale insurgency. Over 50 people have been killed or injured this week alone, and it's only Monday.

Paris has been 'burning' for almost two weeks now. Exactly one person has been killed. They are not the same.

Seriously, man, you're better than this.

I could just as easily say the same of you LR. Of course theres no similarity in scale I didnt think I had to point out that what Im talking about is the tactics involved. The tactics are the same whether youre using car bombs, suicide bombers, molotov coctails or hand guns: attack, melt away, attack, melt away. Present your vastly more powerful enemy no fixed target. Its a very effective strategy, as we've been seeing in Iraq, and now in France.

I understand a new plan is supposed to be unveiled soon. We'll see what it is.

I'll tell you whats its going to be right now: a list of new social programs aimed at the disadvantaged, angry youth of the Muslim ghettos.

 

[Che Guava]

I'll tell you whats its going to be right now: a list of new social programs aimed at the disadvantaged, angry youth of the Muslim ghettos.

either that, or deportation programs.

 

[Little Raven]

I could just as easily say the same of you LR. Of course theres no similarity in scale I didnt think I had to point out that what Im talking about is the tactics involved. The tactics are the same whether youre using car bombs, suicide bombers, molotov coctails or hand guns: attack, melt away, attack, melt away. Present your vastly more powerful enemy no fixed target. Its a very effective strategy, as we've been seeing in Iraq, and now in France.

The basic tactic is the same, yes. It's also the same tactic the American Revolutionaries used for much of the war. I'm sure some of our resident historians can point out it's use much earlier. That does not make Paris the new Boston, or the new Baghdad.

Like I said, the French are facing a problem never seen before in a first-world nation. It's not altogether surprising that the first two weeks have been bumpy.

 

[AceChilla]

Can anyone blame employers if they are hesitant to hire a Mohammed from one of these neighberhoods after this?....

Sad but true.