Paris burning

[kryszcztov]

A little off-topic, but I thought France was a gun-free society?

So much for the anti-gun people using post-Katrina riots and anarchy as reason to ban guns.

France is officialy a gun-free society, ie. you have to get yourself a license to have guns, and it isn't as easy as in the USA where you can just open a bank account (see Bowling for Columbine, that scene is pure genious ). That means that 99% or so of the French population doesn't possess any gun. As for you off-topic about guns and all, this is very interesting but it is an off-topic. Start a new thread, and be sure I'll step there as well.

Update on the situation, though Steph provided new figures...

Yesterday I started a little game with myself, it was to bet on the number of cars burnt during the following night. OK that is a cynical game, and nothing else. But it is rather obsolete, because this weekend the civil unrest has reached a new level of violence, with some buildings burnt (schools, social associations, warehouses, etc...), shooting at the cops and firemen with hunting guns and wounding them, also "collateral damage" on some citizens... Hey, I heard that a 13-month baby was wounded when some guys threw some rocks at a bus last night in my very own suburb town of Colombes (Hauts-de-Seine) ! Fortunately I live in the calm part of the town (houses), not in the cheap buildings part. But no one is safe, nothing prevents some guys to walk 20 minutes towards my neighbourhood... Apparently they escape when they see some citizens standing in front of their targets, guarding their homes...

In front of such an increase in violence and the spreading of it through the country, one should really expect that the government does something. Tonight de Villepin will talk on TF1 (1st French TV channel), to annouce several things. Waiting to hear from that, because last night Chirac spoke, and it was, as expected (let's face it ), vague common sense. This guy is nothing of a President, just a joke, his speeches are becoming the shame of the Presidency, he's totally out of it. He wants to be the old monarch but doesn't have the shoulders for that. A real disaster. Then you have de Villepin for whom I have at least some little respect (see the episode at the UN, where France won 1-0 over the USA), but don't expect much from him anyway, at least under these circumstances. And then Sarkozy, Minister of the Interior, the politics scum (as I now call him), who is as useless as Chirac. In 2002, when he became Minister of the Interior for a first time (then Ministor of Finances, then nada, then leader of the UMP, and now both ), he told the policemen that "it's fine to organize rugby matches with the youth, but it's not the police's duty" and he called for repression and all. There, you have it finally, mon p'tit Nicolas : unleash your dogs !!

For those who think this is a civil war, I have one question : what is a civil war ? Check your definition. This ain't a war, except for those in the front line (cops and firemen). 99.99% of the French population isn't at "war". Why should I overestimate those events ? To acknowledge they're important ? Sorry, I'm not a hype kind of guy. This is a very serious episode, but it isn't a civil war. And also I'm not a soothsayer : I can't foresee the future, so if next week the Palais de l'Elysée is attacked, well, fine, I'll change my naming of those events probably. So far I haven't seen any consequence of those events myself with my own eyes. If this is a civil war, then I'm the Queen of England. Now, I'm not saying that it won't happen next. Even though I don't believe it (at all).

 

[Urederra]

I don't know if somebody has already mention that one person has died in the riots.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/

sorry if the link doesn't work

 

[classical_hero]

@Krys. While it is not a civil war right now, but it could escalate to that if the violence continues. It seems that the French Authorities are not doing all they can to stop this violence. Why no curfew like a few posters before me have said? Why no troops to enforce the curfew? There is so much more the French Authroities could be doing and yet they have not done anything but speak and speak and speak. It is time for action and it must be done quickly before things really get out of control.

 

[classical_hero]

I don't know if somebody has already mention that one person has died in the riots.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/

sorry if the link doesn't work

Here's the full link. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07cnd-france.html

Here is a quote from the article that is scary.

"This is just the beginning," said Moussa Diallo, 22, a tall, unemployed French-African man in Clichy-sous-Bois, the working-class Parisian suburb where the violence started Oct. 27. "It's not going to end until there are two policemen dead."

 

[kryszcztov]

I do not discount the very valid points you make, and they are true...But consider this:

If the West is so inferior, why is our monetary and economic culture the one
that is practiced the world over? Why do businessmen all over the world wear
Western style suits and use laptops with Windows?

Why is the USA the leader in most technology industries?
How come our people have the highest wages and life expectancy?
Why has Scandanavia got the highest standard of living in the world?
Why has the UK made 65% of the worlds innovations since 1945?
Why does Western architecture pervade almost every modern city???

Need I go on????

.

Dear Mr. Curt 'Black & White' Sibling,

In today's globalized world, there is no such thing as superior or inferior civilizations. Saying the West isn't superior doesn't imply that the West is inferior. Please refer to your college maths before making stupid assumptions. Also, not only is this incorrect per se, but History teaches us that those who viewed their civilizations as superior per se in the past all failed in the end. We know it is very hard to change one's mind at your age (see Matrix for the quote), but let it be said that you're only viewing the world through a post-colonialist approach which belongs to the past century.

As much as we appreciate your cynicism in general on various topics, we must inform you that your arguments fall flat when you try to make a point without any sense of humour. As much as we need and like clowns (we also like to be clowns ourselves from time to time as well), they're only here to entertain us, not rule or enlighten us in serious ways.

We hope you're having a good day, blah blah blah,
signed : a Westerner too

 

[Marla_Singer]

@Krys. While it is not a civil war right now, but it could escalate to that if the violence continues.

Nah... the rioters couldn't handle a civil war.

It seems that the French Authorities are not doing all they can to stop this violence. Why no curfew like a few posters before me have said? Why no troops to enforce the curfew? There is so much more the French Authroities could be doing and yet they have not done anything but speak and speak and speak. It is time for action and it must be done quickly before things really get out of control.

I don't understand that idea spread in foreign media about authorities being weak towards the rioters. Actually, in domestice media, many people are saying that Authorities are inciting violence to spread all over the country in responding too fiercely to the rioters (I disagree with them, but it's just to show you how disconnected to the reality are foreign commentators). More than 1,200 people have been incarcerated since the beginning of events. That's huge.

You must know that in France we have special brigades dedicated to riots. It's called the CRS, and believe, they aren't sweet guys. Usually, if you see CRS, you must get out, and if the CRS charge, well, you better run as fast as you can, because they don't make any difference among people who are in the mob.

Anyway, the more I see that thing, the more I believe it's about criminals trying to protect their zone of activity in manipulating youngsters (between 14 and 18). The neighbourhoods which are burning are all places where unemployment is rampant, and where many, many people lives thanks to drug dealing. About 80% of people from 15 to 30 have already smoked haschich in France. That market, which is purely illegal, is insanely spread, and those managing that business comes mostly from those neighbourhoods.

Cops have recently dismantled workshop producing molotov cocktail at a large scale. Those producing those cocktails weren't aged of 16, like is the average rioter... they were about 25, and were criminals recorded at the police (something rioters aren't in many cases). I think this reveals the truth about the whole thing. Clearly, there are people who take advantage of those neighbourhood being in bad economical shape.

The more I see those events, the more I want them to spread with cops winning everywhere. Maybe those riots were what was actually needed to show to criminals that they aren't anymore the kings of their neighbourhoods. That cops are definitly there, and that there illegal activities aren't profitable anymore.

Just another comment. I can't bare anymore to hear idiots like Noël Mamère repeating once again that those kids are poor victims of the society and that we must understand them. It's been more than 20 years that we hear those craps, and it's purely counter-productive as the people they talk about are not stupid and know how to take advantage of those fake humanist speeches.

Police should hold strong. And the government should hold strong. Sometimes strength is the only thing people can understand.

 

[kryszcztov]

@Krys. While it is not a civil war right now, but it could escalate to that if the violence continues. It seems that the French Authorities are not doing all they can to stop this violence. Why no curfew like a few posters before me have said? Why no troops to enforce the curfew? There is so much more the French Authroities could be doing and yet they have not done anything but speak and speak and speak. It is time for action and it must be done quickly before things really get out of control.

Why no curfew ? I don't know, it is a good question. I think the deal is to try to keep things under control until it dies out, so that it doesn't reach new levels of violence. Obviously this is meant to fail (for once !). Why ? Those events are the expression of what hasn't been done for 30 years. It is just logical that politicians are completely losing it right now, since they usually only focus on simple and short-term stuff. I think some answers will come tonight on TV (de Villepin in 3 hours exactly), though don't expect anything apart from an increase in what is already done from the authorities.

Sending the army will be a serious precedent in our modern history, I hope it doesn't happen. But if there is a need for it, then I guess that the "karcher" (industrial cleaning) will come. Another thing to consider is that many of the arrested guys will feed overpopulated jails, how will we manage that ?

And I believe a lot in the competition game between different places of civil unrest. We had many examples in the past of 2 bands who were fighting one another in the suburbs (2 parts of a same town). They like the challenge. And some 11- and 12-year old boys (not even teens !) also go out in the street. It's not like war-children in Colombia or Liberia, but that IS scary, boys who are barely out of primary school.

 

[Akka]

Kaeptn, a riot is something that happens spontaneously once, or twice. Whats happening right now isnt mere rioting any more. If 'civil war' makes you feel uncomfortable, what would you call it instead?

"unrest"

A civil war doesn't have one dead for a 11-days period.
This is a very serious situation, but it's nowhere near of a real civil war in any way (for now).

 

[Verbose]

Marla I think the fact that its now a nationwide problem indicates that its no longer a strictly police matter. Does France have the equivelant of a National Guard? Police can make arrests when theyre able to catch them, but they arent equipped or trained to handle nationwide uprisings.

France has both national "les Compagnies Republicaine de Sécurité", the CRS riot police, 15.000 strong (blue uniforms)...

AND the "Gendarmes mobiles", para-military (black uniforms). Their depot in Versailles is the headquarters of four armoured squadrons, three with APCs and one equiped with light tanks (90mm gun).
(Ordinary national police as in "Gendarmes nationales" exist as well, apart from the local community police.)

France has plenty military-style police compared to just about any other country in Western Europe, and more police per capita.
(The fire brigade is another para-military outfit and can carry guns should the situation warrant it.)

So why can't they just squash this?

Maybe because it's less of a direct confrontation in the streets than a bunch of local kids nipping out to torch stuff and generally raise hell in spots where the police aren't patrolling that very minute.
It looks like a cat and mouse game and there seems to be an aspect of kids daring each other to do outrageous stuff.

The really confusing part is that the suburbian youth "in protest" are torching their own dreary neighbourhoods for the most part.

And how this can just go on and on like it has.

 

[Skirmisher]

Heard on the radio, a protester explain he and his comrades only burned Peugeot cars. The rationale behind this was that the local Peugeot factory had only hired two immigrants out of 1400 employees.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Ok civil unrest it is, not civil war (for now).

France has both national "les Compagnies Republicaine de Sécurité", the CRS riot police, 15.000 strong (blue uniforms)...

AND the "Gendarmes mobiles", para-military (black uniforms). Their depot in Versailles is the headquarters in Versailles is the home of four armoured squadrons, three with APCs and one equiped with light tanks (90mm gun).
(Ordinary national police as in "Gendarmes nationales" exist as well, apart from the local community police.)

France has plenty military-style police compared to just about any other country in Western Europe, and more police per capita.
(The fire brigade is another para-military outfit and can carry guns should the situation warrant it.)

So why can't they just squash this?

Thats my first question. My second question is: What good is having all those highly trained and well equipped security forces if they cant be used? Makes zero sense to me.

Maybe because it's less of a direct confrontation in the streets than a bunch of local kids nipping out to torch stuff and generally raise hell in spots where the police aren't patrolling that very minute.
It looks like a cat and mouse game and there seems to be an aspect of kids daring each other to do outrageous stuff.

Exactly, and the problem is that at the moment, the militants are the cat, and the authorities are the mouse. That has to be reversed immediately. How? By instituting a curfew and rolling all that hardware you mentioned into the trouble spots, and staying there to enforce the curfew, with lethal force if necessary. Merely announcing new welfare programs on TV wont end the crisis.

 

[Marla_Singer]

France has both national "les Compagnies Republicaine de Sécurité", the CRS riot police, 15.000 strong (blue uniforms)...

AND the "Gendarmes mobiles", para-military (black uniforms). Their depot in Versailles is the headquarters in Versailles is the home of four armoured squadrons, three with APCs and one equiped with light tanks (90mm gun).
(Ordinary national police as in "Gendarmes nationales" exist as well, apart from the local community police.)

France has plenty military-style police compared to just about any other country in Western Europe, and more police per capita.
(The fire brigade is another para-military outfit and can carry guns should the situation warrant it.)

The Gendarerie is actually a military corpse. As such, military is on the field already. Sending tanks wouldn't help in anyway since as you've rightly said, it's about a game of cat and mouse, and not an uprising.

So why can't they just squash this?

Maybe because it's less of a direct confrontation in the streets than a bunch of local kids nipping out to torch stuff and generally raise hell in spots where the police aren't patrolling that very minute.
It looks like a cat and mouse game and there seems to be an aspect of kids daring each other to do outrageous stuff.

Indeed. We're talking about very small groups spread in various locations, they move constantly, burn stuff, throw stones to the firemen and cops coming to extinguish the fire and get out.

The really confusing part is that the suburbian youth "in protest" are torching their own dreary neighbourhoods for the most part.

And how this can just go on and on like it has.

Those who are burning their own neighbourhood do this because their big brothers say it's right to riot against the cops. However, those big brothers are criminals who have all interests to see their neighbourhood in the worst shape possible. The more it will be the mess in the neighbourhood, the more they will be the rulers of it.

It has spread because too many people in France consider Sarkozy's tough stance against criminals is racist. But actually, what is racist is to consider that it's fine for criminals to do their little illegal business as long as they don't come in the bourgeois neighbourhood where "we" live. People like Noël Mamère are indeed racist since they don't care if criminality is high in districts where they never put their feet in.

 

[Little Raven]

Thats my first question. My second question is: What good is having all those highly trained and well equipped security forces if they cant be used? Makes zero sense to me.

They can be used. They just can't be used in the traditional way.

The traditional riot has a fairly predictable structure. A bunch of people get upset, form an angry crowd, and begin trashing their neighborhood. If left unchecked, the group may move on to other neighborhoods, but it usually isn't a quick process.

Police all over the world, France being no exception, are well prepared for these sorts of things. Riot gear, tear gas, and a liberal application of clubs to the heads of the protestors will generally bring things under control in relatively short order. Believe me, the CRS is no doubt itching for the old days by now.

But for some irritating reason, the youths in France appear to have no desire to have their skulls cracked. So they're inventing a new way to riot. Tiny gangs ranging anywhere from 2 to 20 people. Highly mobile, sometimes on foot but often on scooters. Coordinating by text message, cells phones and IM, they show up, lob a couple of molotovs, and disappear into the night. There are no central masses to attack, no neighborhoods of mass chaos to control. Just hundreds of small groups that attack and fade. This presents a unique problem for law enforcement. Either they learn to fight smart, by tapping into these networks and using them to roll up troublemakers, or they respond with enough force to lock down a city of almost 20 million. The former is probably the better course but involves government learning how to do something new, which is never fast. The latter would be very, very expensive.

This new form of rioting has produced some interesting statistics. On the one hand, things would seem to be incredibly violent. Over 4000 cars have been burned. 4000 cars! When was the last time a first world nation saw anything like that? On the other hand, things would seem to be incredibly peaceful. In 11 nights of rioting, only 1 person has been killed and a handful seriously injured. 1 person. When was the last time a riot of such scale produced so few casualties? In L.A., at least 8 people were dead in the first 24 hours, and hundreds of serious injuries were reported.

I enjoy a good French roast as much as anyone, but to their credit, they do seem to be tackling a new phenomenon here.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Thats my first question. My second question is: What good is having all those highly trained and well equipped security forces if they cant be used? Makes zero sense to me.

They are fully used since the beginning. Your statements make zero sense to everyone. How did you get the idea it wasn't used ?

If it's been 11 days there are riots, it's because those riots have spread all over the country, not because police has been inefficient to restore order.

Exactly, and the problem is that at the moment, the militants are the cat, and the authorities are the mouse. That has to be reversed immediately. How? By instituting a curfew and rolling all that hardware you mentioned into the trouble spots, and staying there to enforce the curfew, with lethal force if necessary. Merely announcing new welfare programs on TV wont end the crisis.

It's amazing how your comments are totally disconnected from the reality . Where have you got the idea anyone was announcing new welfare programs on TV ? You're stubborn in your totally wrong interpretations of events since the beginning of this thread... and no matter what people say, you still believe you're right in your feeling cops do nothing and politicians spread money to the neighbourhood in order to appease them. That's absolutely NOT what's happening currently so stop saying CRAPS ! Since the beginning you've understood nothing about what was happening. NOTHING.

Stop with your silly idea right now or I'll permanently ignore you.

 

[Skirmisher]

Two Paris suburb authorities has now decided to invoke a curfew, starting midnight.

The youth say they want jobs, and an end to racism, and the opposition wants Sarkozy's head on the end of a pole. Now, I don't know if it would look good, though.

 

[Marla_Singer]

They can be used. They just can't be used in the traditional way.

The traditional riot has a fairly predictable structure. A bunch of people get upset, form an angry crowd, and begin trashing their neighborhood. If left unchecked, the group may move on to other neighborhoods, but it usually isn't a quick process.

Police all over the world, France being no exception, are well prepared for these sorts of things. Riot gear, tear gas, and a liberal application of clubs to the heads of the protestors will generally bring things under control in relatively short order. Believe me, the CRS is no doubt itching for the old days by now.

But for some irritating reason, the youths in France appear to have no desire to have their skulls cracked. So they're inventing a new way to riot. Tiny gangs ranging anywhere from 2 to 20 people. Highly mobile, sometimes on foot but often on scooters. Coordinating by text message, cells phones and IM, they show up, lob a couple of molotovs, and disappear into the night. There are no central masses to attack, no neighborhoods of mass chaos to control. Just hundreds of small groups that attack and fade. This presents a unique problem for law enforcement. Either they learn to fight smart, by tapping into these networks and using them to roll up troublemakers, or they respond with enough force to lock down a city of almost 20 million. The former is probably the better course but involves government learning how to do something new, which is never fast. The latter would be very, very expensive.

This new form of rioting has produced some interesting statistics. On the one hand, things would seem to be incredibly violent. Over 4000 cars have been burned. 4000 cars! When was the last time a first world nation saw anything like that? On the other hand, things would seem to be incredibly peaceful. In 11 nights of rioting, only 1 person has been killed and a handful seriously injured. 1 person. When was the last time a riot of such scale produced so few casualties? In L.A., at least 8 people were dead in the first 24 hours, and hundreds of serious injuries were reported.

I enjoy a good French roast as much as anyone, but to their credit, they do seem to be tackling a new phenomenon here.

Thanks for this post.

I must say that you have a very accurate vision of what's happening and I've enjoyed most things you've said since the beginning of this thread. It feels good to hear you. Simply because it's accurate.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Two Paris suburb authorities has now decided to invoke a curfew, starting midnight.

It won't have any effect.

The youth say they want jobs, and an end to racism, and the opposition wants Sarkozy's head on the end of a pole. Now, I don't know if it would look good, though.

Sarkozy should hold strong. If Sarkozy would quit, that would give the worst messages imaginable to rioters. The Left-wing opposition in France is currently irresponsible.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

I heard on Swedish television that rioting had spread to Germany. They didnt give much info though, just mentioned it very quickly. Could someone from germany comment on that?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

They can be used. They just can't be used in the traditional way.

The traditional riot has a fairly predictable structure. A bunch of people get upset, form an angry crowd, and begin trashing their neighborhood. If left unchecked, the group may move on to other neighborhoods, but it usually isn't a quick process.

Police all over the world, France being no exception, are well prepared for these sorts of things. Riot gear, tear gas, and a liberal application of clubs to the heads of the protestors will generally bring things under control in relatively short order. Believe me, the CRS is no doubt itching for the old days by now.

But for some irritating reason, the youths in France appear to have no desire to have their skulls cracked. So they're inventing a new way to riot. Tiny gangs ranging anywhere from 2 to 20 people. Highly mobile, sometimes on foot but often on scooters. Coordinating by text message, cells phones and IM, they show up, lob a couple of molotovs, and disappear into the night. There are no central masses to attack, no neighborhoods of mass chaos to control. Just hundreds of small groups that attack and fade. This presents a unique problem for law enforcement. Either they learn to fight smart, by tapping into these networks and using them to roll up troublemakers, or they respond with enough force to lock down a city of almost 20 million. The former is probably the better course but involves government learning how to do something new, which is never fast. The latter would be very, very expensive.

This new form of rioting has produced some interesting statistics. On the one hand, things would seem to be incredibly violent. Over 4000 cars have been burned. 4000 cars! When was the last time a first world nation saw anything like that? On the other hand, things would seem to be incredibly peaceful. In 11 nights of rioting, only 1 person has been killed and a handful seriously injured. 1 person. When was the last time a riot of such scale produced so few casualties? In L.A., at least 8 people were dead in the first 24 hours, and hundreds of serious injuries were reported.

All very valid points. How about a curfew though? Also, this is mostly occuring in the neighborhoods of the militants, there would be no need to lock down all of Paris. Why not lockdown the areas of unrest only?

I enjoy a good French roast as much as anyone, but to their credit, they do seem to be tackling a new phenomenon here.

New in the West, not new in the ME.

It's amazing how your comments are totally disconnected from the reality . Where have you got the idea anyone was announcing new welfare programs on TV ? You're stubborn in your totally wrong interpretations of events since the beginning of this thread... and no matter what people say, you still believe you're right in your feeling cops do nothing and politicians spread money to the neighbourhood in order to appease them. That's absolutely NOT what's happening currently so stop saying CRAPS ! Since the beginning you've understood nothing about what was happening. NOTHING.

Stop with your silly idea right now or I'll permanently ignore you.

Marla, is it at all possible for you to engage in a conversation with somebody who disagrees with you, without having a temper tantrum like a spoiled little girl? Now behave yourself before youre sent to your room without uh, wine or croissants, or whatever.

 

[Verbose]

Those who are burning their own neighbourhood do this because their big brothers say it's right to riot against the cops. However, those big brothers are criminals who have all interests to see their neighbourhood in the worst shape possible. The more it will be the mess in the neighbourhood, the more they will be the rulers of it.

We would now be talking about the famous approx. 1%, and then some, of French territory that has been a virtual no-go zone for the police for years, right? (If they go in it's with armoured cars and full battle gear.)

This is where the gangs have taken over, and selling drugs is the career of choice for the locals. (Not much other work to be had anyway.) If the police turns up it's viewed as an encroachment upon their "turf".

Incidentally, directed at those who seem to think this is about Islam, this also means they are more likely to listen to gansta rap and watch the "Godfather" movies than listen to the local imam and dream about restoring the Caliphate.