Paris burning

[Marla_Singer]

All very valid points. How about a curfew though? Also, this is mostly occuring in the neighborhoods of the militants, there would be no need to lock down all of Paris. Why not lockdown the areas of unrest only?

Curfews won't make any difference. The strategy used by rioters will remain the same.

@Marla, is it at all possible for you to engage in a conversation with somebody who disagrees with you, without having a temper tantrum like a spoiled little girl? Now behave yourself before youre sent to your room without uh, wine or croissants, or whatever.

There's no disagreements between us, you simply state wrong facts. If I would tell you that France has sent people on the moon, and you wouldn't agree, would this be a disagreement or simply me stating wrong facts ?

 

[Skirmisher]

Some analysts say that De Villepin has decided to let Sarkozy to run his course and become as unpopular as possible. They both want to become the next president of France. In that way. it is claimed, de Villepin can position himself better in his bid for the presidency. But as of yet, no prime minister of France has ever become president.

I don't know how exacly the French parliamentarian system works. Is it the president, or the prime minister who can fire ministers?

 

[AceChilla]

Hmmm last thing I heard they were cautious in Belgium because they suspected the same might happen over there, didn't hear anything about Germany though.

Maybe the Belgium do have a problem because I know some of the ghettos in Antwerpen and Brussel are almost on the same level of poverty and joblesness as the ghettos in France. I don't think that they have those kinds of neighbourhoods in Germany, also in Germany it's mostly Turks and not north-Africans.

 

[CurtSibling]

Dear Mr. Curt 'Black & White' Sibling,

In today's globalized world, there is no such thing as superior or inferior civilizations. Saying the West isn't superior doesn't imply that the West is inferior. Please refer to your college maths before making stupid assumptions. Also, not only is this incorrect per se, but History teaches us that those who viewed their civilizations as superior per se in the past all failed in the end. We know it is very hard to change one's mind at your age (see Matrix for the quote), but let it be said that you're only viewing the world through a post-colonialist approach which belongs to the past century.

Dear Mr. 'Bleeding Heart Idealist' kryszcztov,

Coming from a country that made several failed attempts at world empire,
I guess you can be forgiven such ire and insolence. So I refer you in turn
to your history books - And tell me where any nation has stopped using
the same tactics to attain power and prestige?

They used to call it colonialism, surely - But what do we call the smash
and grab that the USA and cohorts carried out in Iraq? Pre-emptive war?

Nice name, but the same result...Grabbing the spoils while treading on the weak.

Perhaps in your rosy, leftist world, all nations are fair players and nice.
But take a look outside and you might see that the world is run by the
same harsh and unfair mechanisms that have been in place for many eras.

You are viewing the world from a intoxicated and defunct liberalist view.

As much as we appreciate your cynicism in general on various topics, we must inform you that your arguments fall flat when you try to make a point without any sense of humour. As much as we need and like clowns (we also like to be clowns ourselves from time to time as well), they're only here to entertain us, not rule or enlighten us in serious ways.

Hmmm....I see you assumed to use the royal 'we', a sure sign of dementia.

When I speak, I speak in deadly earnest...Very little of what I say is meant as a joke.

If there are any clowns around, it is those who like to make personal attacks on posters.

So if these lame stabs at my posts are all you have, please don't make the effort!

We hope you're having a good day, blah blah blah,
signed : a Westerner too

I am having a nice day. No civil disorder here in the UK!

Hope you don't get lynched by rioting muslims!

 

[Marla_Singer]

We would now be talking about the famous approx. 1%, and then some, of French territory that has been a virtual no-go zone for the police for years, right? (If they go in it's with armoured cars and full battle gear.)

This is where the gangs have taken over, and selling drugs is the career of choice for the locals. (Not much other work to be had anyway.) If the police turns up it's viewed as an encroachment upon their "turf".

Incidentally, directed at those who seem to think this is about Islam, this also means they are more likely to listen to gansta rap and watch the "Godfather" movies than listen to the local imam and dream about restoring the Caliphate.

Exactly .

 

[Skirmisher]

I heard on Swedish television that rioting had spread to Germany. They didnt give much info though, just mentioned it very quickly.

I've heard reports that it has spread to Brussels too. The report said that five cars had been burned in an immigrant quarter in Berlin.

 

[klazlo]

Stop with your silly idea right now or I'll permanently ignore you.

Bozo, this is a serious threat, I can tell ya!
So Marla, what is about the "united in diversity" thing? What you write does not correspond with this stuff too much... IIRC you used to have a "US friend" sig, what's about that?

I think nobody is defending criminals. I'm sure that the French police will end this riot eventually. But your comments fail to offer anything to address why these people are criminals. People do not become criminals just beacuse they are Muslims or blacks, but can become criminals if they are neglected immigrants. Personally I would not tolerate criminal activity. But I would try to understand why do people get there. Nobody is born as a criminal.

 

[Little Raven]

All very valid points. How about a curfew though? Also, this is mostly occuring in the neighborhoods of the militants, there would be no need to lock down all of Paris. Why not lockdown the areas of unrest only?

Because there aren't really 'areas of unrest,' at least not in the traditional sense. Generally, when you talk about riots, 'areas of unrest' mean a few city blocks. At most, you're talking about a couple of neighborhoods.

This doesn't apply to the situation in France. There are dozens of Paris neighborhoods experiencing fires, and the arsonists are highly mobile. Paris is a city of almost 20 million people. Even excluding the nieghborhoods without problems, the task of initiating 'lockdown' is enormous, particularly when you consider that the trouble isn't limited to Paris. In L.A., it took almost 10,000 soldiers and law enforcement officers to bring order, and that was a traditional riot confined to a handful of neighborhoods in a city that's half the size of Paris.

I don't think you appreciate the magnitude of what you're calling for.

 

[Masquerouge]

Wow so I just can't play civ4 for a week withouth having 18 pages written on France behind my back ?

I'm seeing the events through very distorted means, that is Internet. And the NYT.
So what I think this is not : civil war (one casualty in 11 days ?), civil rights riots (the rioters are just stupid, ignorant little thugs just eager to get news coverage).

I think this has a lot to do with poverty, otoh. France is now paying a harsh price for what seems (and was) a good idea 40 years ago : stacking immigrants in HLM, the huge buildings for poor people. Back in the '60s, these HLM were a HUGE improvment over the slums the migrants used to live in. These buildings were not mainly for migrants, but since they were, and still are, the most affordable housing in France, the poorest people went there, and it just so happens that the migrants often belong in that unfortunate category of the population.

I've lived in quite a few of these cities (Sarcelles, Planoise...) and I am convinced that these places will turn anyone into a young rioter, not just muslims.

In the past decades, quite a few cites were torned down, but a bit too late, I guess.

 

[aneeshm]

How does my suggestion of sending in troops with shoot to kill orders sound now , now that Paris is , in parts , practically under siege ?

Of course , this was anticipated ( by a friend of my teacher's ) long ago - when you allow the practically unchecked immigration of culturally backward and civilisationally inferior people of an intolerant faith in numbers larger than your society can tame , this sort of thing will happen .

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Curfews won't make any difference. The strategy used by rioters will remain the same.

If there's an APC at every intersection, and troops patrolling in the rioting parts of the city, that strategy would be much more difficult and dangerous for the militants to implement.

There's no disagreements between us, you simply state wrong facts. If I would tell you that France has sent people on the moon, and you wouldn't agree, would this be a disagreement or simply me stating wrong facts ?

Ok fine, so I state wrong facts, everything I say is complete crap and utterly bogus, so what? If you insisted to me that the French had gone to the moon, Id have a good chuckle and that would be about it, I wouldnt have a nervous breakdown

 

[Skirmisher]

Wow so I just can't play civ4 for a week withouth
So what I think this is not : civil war (one casualty in 11 days ?), civil rights riots (the rioters are just stupid, ignorant little thugs just eager to get news coverage).

Actually the UN human rights state that everyone has the right to a job, so in that sense it is a civil rights issue.

The confusion stems from the fact during the Cold War it was politically expedient for Western leaders only to call for political rights. Meanwhile the social rights were ignored.

 

[Masquerouge]

How does my suggestion of sending in troops with shoot to kill orders sound now , now that Paris is , in parts , practically under siege ?

Even you did not have the guts to say it is under siege. You had to say practically, because it is not at all under siege.

And yeah, the police going around killing people will do a lot to calm the rioters, given than they riot because they think two people were killed by the police.

Of course , this was anticipated ( by a friend of my teacher's ) long ago - when you allow the practically unchecked immigration of culturally backward and civilisationally inferior people of an intolerant faith in numbers larger than your society can tame , this sort of thing will happen .

Of course.

And what do you think will happen when your country will stop all immigration on the grounds that migrants are from a culturally backward, civilisationnaly inferior people of an intolerant faith ? World peace ?

 

[Masquerouge]

Actually the UN human rights state that everyone has the right to a job, so in that sense it is a civil rights issue.

Given that most of the rioters are under 18, I find the job issue to be what it really is: a pathetic excuse to burn a car.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Because there aren't really 'areas of unrest,' at least not in the traditional sense. Generally, when you talk about riots, 'areas of unrest' mean a few city blocks. At most, you're talking about a couple of neighborhoods.

This doesn't apply to the situation in France. There are dozens of Paris neighborhoods experiencing fires, and the arsonists are highly mobile. Paris is a city of almost 20 million people. Even excluding the nieghborhoods without problems, the task of initiating 'lockdown' is enormous, particularly when you consider that the trouble isn't limited to Paris. In L.A., it took almost 10,000 soldiers and law enforcement officers to bring order, and that was a traditional riot confined to a handful of neighborhoods in a city that's half the size of Paris.

I don't think you appreciate the magnitude of what you're calling for.

Start with the rioting suburbs of just Paris, roll out all the armor and lock down those specific areas. The symbolic show of force and resolve in the suburbs of Paris could have a chilling effect on the unrest nationwide, and make it unecessary to 'occupy' those farflung areas. I think its at least worth a try.

 

[Verbose]

Of course , this was anticipated ( by a friend of my teacher's ) long ago - when you allow the practically unchecked immigration of culturally backward and civilisationally inferior people of an intolerant faith in numbers larger than your society can tame , this sort of thing will happen .

France doesn't import unemployed gangster-wannabe punks living in run down neighbourhoods — it makes 'em local.

Islam is incidental to this whole show. It's ALL about France, what works and what doesn't.

 

[Masquerouge]

France doesn't import unemployed gangster-wannabe punks living in run down neighbourhoods — it makes 'em local.

Islam is incidental to this whole show. It's ALL about France, what works and what doesn't.

Yup. Dead on.

 

[Skirmisher]

Given that most of the rioters are under 18, I find the job issue to be what it really is: a pathetic excuse to burn a car.

How do you know that? The people I have seen on television explaining their reasons for rioting seem to be older.

 

[klazlo]

Of course , this was anticipated ( by a friend of my teacher's ) long ago - when you allow the practically unchecked immigration of culturally backward and civilisationally inferior people of an intolerant faith in numbers larger than your society can tame , this sort of thing will happen .

"culturally backward and civilisationally inferior" - what a piece of crap!

 

[Little Raven]

Start with the rioting suburbs of just Paris, roll out all the armor and lock down those specific areas. The symbolic show of force and resolve in the suburbs of Paris could have a chilling effect on the unrest nationwide, and make it unecessary to 'occupy' those farflung areas. I think its at least worth a try.

That's very easy to say on a message board. Now start doing some math.

L.A., population 10 million.: Traditional riot limited to a few neighborhoods.
Level of force required to 'lockdown' the affected area: ~10000 soldiers and law enforcement officers.

Paris, population 20 million: Distributed riot spanning dozens of neighborhoods.
Level of force required to 'lockdown' affected area: ?

The only thing we can say for sure it that it will be large. Very, very large. And very, very expensive. I know France is absolutely flush with extra money and soldiers these days, but even so, I can understand the reluctance of politicians to begin filling the streets of their capital with military equipment.

Now, that said, this has to be brought under control. If the police aren't able to adapt to the new tactics of the troublemakers, then brute force will have to suffice. But France is going to suffer mightily if she goes down that road.