Paris burning

[Masquerouge]

Don't make me laugh. Individual Muslims may, and often do choose to be peaceful citizens. But that is not what Islam is founded upon. Have you ever heard of the Banu Qurayza? If you haven't, look them up on Wikipedia, they have a short article on them. To put it ismply, they were a tribe of Medinian Jews Mohammed had slaughtered because they wouldn't declare him a Prophet from God. If you just read some of the Koran then you'd see it quite clearly teaches hate for those who are not Muslims:

One could also come up with "kill them all, and God will sort them out" (loosely translation from the French, sorry), or the sack of Antioch by the Crusaders, or the whole Crusades for that matter... Anyway just because slaughters have been commited does not mean the whole thing is rotten. Or else the American Democracy has no hopes of redemption after what it did to the Natives Americans.

Etc, etc....I'm sure you see the point. The Koran is filled with verses like this. And before you start whining about context, I've looked at the context, and it's exactly what it looks like: A guidebook for killing non-Muslims.

Oh. You mean, the things about hardening Pharao's heart and killing his newborns after sending him the 10 plagues ? Or the little babies that must be smashed joyfully on rocks ? Or the proper way to enslave other tribes ? Seems OT is no better than the Kuran on that one.

 

[Elrohir]

One could also come up with "kill them all, and God will sort them out" (loosely translation from the French, sorry), or the sack of Antioch by the Crusaders, or the whole Crusades for that matter... Anyway just because slaughters have been commited does not mean the whole thing is rotten. Or else the American Democracy has no hopes of redemption after what it did to the Natives Americans.

I don't deny that atrocities have been committed by Christians in the past, (Although I think the Crusades are often overrated, it was a tiny invasion by modern standards) those atrocities you quoted were not sanctioned by the Bible. Jesus never told the Crusaders to launch a Holy War, the Pope, a fallible man did. When a Christian is violent, he is no following true Christianity, he is following psuedo-Christianity. When a Muslim is violent, he is following true Islam. That is the difference between the two.

As for American and the NA - what? That was a century or two ago, you don't see that happening today. If anything Indians are given more rights than regular US citizens today. (On their reservations they are exempt from most state laws, and while they can move out of the reservation if they want to, whites can move in)

Oh. You mean, the things about hardening Pharao's heart and killing his newborns after sending him the 10 plagues ? Or the little babies that must be smashed joyfully on rocks ? Or the proper way to enslave other tribes ? Seems OT is no better than the Kuran on that one.

I'm not going to debate the Old Testament with you, but suffice to say at least in the New Testament we were commanded to "Turn the other cheeck" and warned that "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword", stern admonitions against violence if I ever heard them. Islam has no such warnings that I am aware of, except when speaking of violence against other Muslims. (If anyone knows of one, I'd like to hear it, really)

And even keeping the NT out of this, how often do you see Orthodox Jews burning thousands of cars or blowing themselves up in buses or pizza parlors? That's the difference between Judaism or Christianity and Islam.

 

[Jorge]

And even keeping the NT out of this, how often do you see Orthodox Jews burning thousands of cars or blowing themselves up in buses or pizza parlors? That's the difference between Judaism or Christianity and Islam.

Why would you blow yourself if you have a tank or a plane to safely deliver a bomb?

 

[Elrohir]

Why would you blow yourself if you have a tank or a plane to safely deliver a bomb?

Why would you blow yourself up at all?

 

[Verbose]

As far as the creeds go what's working against Islam in Western perception is their own insistance on the Text.

Nice similarities to original Protestantism btw. Judaism and Catholicism place a whole lot less emphasis on the text itself and more on tradition and interpretation.

But this focusing on the Text as The Word of God ties in with Western ideas about knowledge being textbased.

So if the Quran is holy writ for Muslims, then Christians feel capable of reading the book and extracting "what it really means" — especially protestants since they traditionally do the same with their own holy book. (Though with very different results and tint to their specs.)

And then Muslims can protest all they like to no avail against the interpretation. Westerners still feel that if the ball-game is about reading what's on the page, they are as well equipped as any Muslim to work out what Islam "really means".

 

[Elrohir]

From the Wiki article on the Koran:

The Qur'an (Arabic: أَلْقُرآن al-qur'ān literally "the recitation"; also called Al Qur'ān Al Karīm or "The Noble Qur'an"; or transliterated Quran, Koran, and less commonly Alcoran) is the holy book of Islam. It is a tenet of Islam that the Qur'an is the literal word of God in Arabic and the culmination of God's revelation to mankind, revealed to Muhammad, the final prophet of Islam, over a period of 23 years through the angel Jibril (Gabriel).

Islam is based upon the Koran, which is a violent book written by a bloodthirsty warlord who killed thousands. That is a historical fact, whether you believe it or not.

 

[Jorge]

Why would you blow yourself up at all?

It will depend on the situation. Japanese did it in WWII and nobody thinks that Japanese are crazy violents. When you are at war things are different.

 

[Jorge]

From the Wiki article on the Koran:



Islam is based upon the Koran, which is a violent book written by a bloodthirsty warlord who killed thousands. That is a historical fact, whether you believe it or not.

Do you know words like Crusades or Inquisition? Christians also did terrible things and afterwards managed to make a different interpretation to their book. Besides, no one is killing infidels in Paris, so don´t get things out of proportion.

 

[Winner]

Do you know words like Crusades or Inquisition? Christians also did terrible things and afterwards managed to make a different interpretation to their book. Besides, no one is killing infidels in Paris, so don´t get things out of proportion.

Although I am an atheist and so I despise every religion, I must say the Christianity isn't inherently as warlike as Islam. It hasn't been created as a tool for expansion. Islam was - it was an instrument for the unification of the Arab tribes and subsequent campaign of world conquest.

That's also why are the Muslim fundies more dangerous than the Christian fundies. The more religous the Muslim is, the more aggressive is he.

To quote one CFC poster:

Any Muslim , in order to be a "true" Muslim ( as defined by the Quran and Hadith ) , must be a fanatical infidel-killing machine . Most Muslims today are sensible , and have given up on most of the tenets of their religion . The few true believers out there have a nasty habit of crashing planes into big buildings .

 

[Rik Meleet]

Although I am an atheist and so I despise every religion, I must say the Christianity isn't inherently as warlike as Islam. It hasn't been created as a tool for expansion. Islam was - it was an instrument for the unification of the Arab tribes and subsequent campaign of world conquest.

That's also why are the Muslim fundies more dangerous than the Christian fundies. The more religous the Muslim is, the more aggressive is he.

bolding: That is a firm statement. Too firm to my liking. I strongly advise you to back it up or remove it.

Christianity not as warlike? Christianity not created as a tool for expansion ? Perhaps not, but it was certainly used that way. The Inca's, Azteccs, Maya's and many other peoples will not agree with you.

 

[Winner]

bolding: That is a firm statement. Too firm to my liking. I strongly advise you to back it up or remove it.

If the Christian fundamentalists were living according to Jesus, they'd be poor, kind and pacifist. If the Muslim fundamentalists were living according to Mohammad, they'd be leading the forces of Islam into a war with Infidels (that's basicaly what Mohammad did - Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad).

Christianity not as warlike? Christianity not created as a tool for expansion ? Perhaps not, but it was certainly used that way. The Inca's, Azteccs, Maya's and many other peoples will not agree with you.

I don't say the Christianity was alway peaceful, but as far as I know, there is no order in Bible which says "spread this religion by force, kill the infidels, blah blah blah". They don't divide the world to "Land of Jesus" and "Land of War".

The sad fact is that Christian Europe has been at war with Muslims since the very beginning of Islam itself. It was them who invaded fisrt, not us.

 

[aneeshm]

Oh. You mean, the things about hardening Pharao's heart and killing his newborns after sending him the 10 plagues ? Or the little babies that must be smashed joyfully on rocks ? Or the proper way to enslave other tribes ? Seems OT is no better than the Kuran on that one.

The OT is superseded by the NT .

Pwned !



Note : I'm not a Christian , but I dislike falsehood/misinformation , and I try to correct it whenever possible .

 

[aneeshm]

bolding: That is a firm statement. Too firm to my liking. I strongly advise you to back it up or remove it.

Agreed . Winner missed a word - orthodox .

The corrected statement should read : -

That's also why are the Muslim fundies more dangerous than the Christian fundies. The more orthodoxly religous the Muslim is, the more aggressive is he.

 

[Akka]

Welll, Elrohir, I know you'd like to make your own personnal little Crusade against Islam, and that facts doesn't really matter when you wish something to be like you want, but we actually live in the country, we actually know it (as stunning as it may be ), and we are actually getting information from sources which doesnt put Toulouse in the middle of Switzerland and Strasbourg in the middle of Germany, so I dare to say we know a bit more about this situation than Americans who are unable to even get their locations on a map, much less to teach us about the subtleties of our own society.

So here is what we ALL say, and what ALL our informations sources say : Islam has little to do with these riots, and is at most used as a practical flag to unite these cretins under a cause a bit more classy than "let's just trash things because it's fun and we're wanting to look tough".

Now, I suppose that you'll prefer follow your own little desire for involve Islam in anything that can allow you to continue your little religious war, but don't expect us to take you seriously.

 

[Princeps]

Although I am an atheist and so I despise every religion, I must say the Christianity isn't inherently as warlike as Islam. It hasn't been created as a tool for expansion. Islam was - it was an instrument for the unification of the Arab tribes and subsequent campaign of world conquest.

That's also why are the Muslim fundies more dangerous than the Christian fundies. The more religous the Muslim is, the more aggressive is he.

To quote one CFC poster:

The Christianity has had a far more brutal and violent history than Islam.

Most of the texts which are "brutal" in Koran, are mainly historical records, IIRC.

And, no, unlike the people here, who are balantly biased against Islam claim, you dont need or you must not be a blind murderer to be a Muslim.

The Christian extremism is just as dangerous, it just gets less populisicity.

So, it seems that hitl... uh, Bush and others have been successful in turning people against "common enemy" The Muslims are made enemies because they can be viewed as enemies, the real treath to Europe and pratically to US, is in the inside.

 

[Marla_Singer]

People ! The rioters didn't all have origins in North Africa ! That was maybe 50% of them. At least as many rioters had their roots in West Indies, West Africa and Central Africa. Without mentioning also the rioters from European roots, which are clearly a minority but still an existing minority.

All this to say that summing up the situation in saying "rioters are muslim" is a heavily biased point of view.

 

[Leha]

He he. There is interesting thing happening here, people.
I remember some Israely posters, whenever Israeli/Palestinian conflict was discussed, tried to reason: "Hey, I live here, I see things better"
To wich they were replied (by certain french posters too): " B/S, if you live there doesn't mean I don't know the problem better than you"

AND NOW some french posters state the very same thing. "We live here, we know things better"

 

[Winner]

The Christianity has had a far more brutal and violent history than Islam.

Sure Islam is truly a religion of peace, I know :shakehead

And, no, unlike the people here, who are balantly biased against Islam claim, you dont need or you must not be a blind murderer to be a Muslim.

Err, who is saying that? Don't you forget something?

The Christian extremism is just as dangerous, it just gets less populisicity.

No, it isn't. Are the fanatical christian blowing themselves in mosques? Are they crashing planes into skyscrapers? No and no.

Fanatism is always bad, I agree, but somehow the islamic fundamentalism is what is causing us trouble. If you insult a christian fundie, he'll most probably say that you are gonna to burn in hell or something like that. If you do the same with a Muslim fundie, you'll be killed.

So, it seems that hitl... uh, Bush and others have been successful in turning people against "common enemy" The Muslims are made enemies because they can be viewed as enemies, the real treath to Europe and pratically to US, is in the inside.

You mean in the Muslim immigrants living there?

 

[Marla_Singer]

He he. There is interesting thing happening here, people.
I remember some Israely posters, whenever Israeli/Palestinian conflict was discussed, tried to reason: "Hey, I live here, I see things better"
To wich they were replied (by certain french posters too): " B/S, if you live there doesn't mean I don't know the problem better than you"

AND NOW some french posters state the very same thing. "We live here, we know things better"

The problem is the heavily biased point of view of Israelis on the situation (not less heavily biased than the Palestinians though, but still insanely heavily biased). Near East is at war, and both Palestinians and Israelis believe their country's existence is threatened. Saying France shares such a situation is really pushing the thing too far.

Anyway, I've read the Israeli media in later days and the least I can say is that Israeli hatred and near racism towards the French hasn't got calmer obviously. It's all about laugh and saying France deserves it. I can't figure out how Israeli media could grow so hateful. This is completely beyond me.

 

[Drewcifer]

The problem is the heavily biased point of view of Israelis on the situation (not less heavily biased than the Palestinians though, but still insanely heavily biased). Near East is at war, and both Palestinians and Israelis believe their country's existence is threatened. Saying France shares such a situation is really pushing the thing too far.

Anyway, I've read the Israeli media in later days and the least I can say is that Israeli hatred and near racism towards the French hasn't got calmer obviously. It's all about laugh and saying France deserves it. I can't figure out how Israeli media could grow so hateful. This is completely beyond me.

Schaudenfreud?
Is that the word?

It is not right but it is perhaps understandable. Israel has been on the receiving end of many political lectures that were spoken in French.

It is yet another emotion that will not benefit the human race in any way...