Paris burning

[Bozo Erectus]

I'm curious - if you sat down with a rioter or three this afternoon and asked them "what would it take for you to not riot again tonight" what would they say?

I know that I'm not going to get an actual answer to this (unless Marla, Krysz, or Steph have been doing stuff they haven't been telling us about), but what could anyone do to calm this, rather than crush this?

The reason its been spreading is because the weakness and ineptitude of the authorities, at all levels of government, is on display for all to see. An overwhelming show of force is what was necessary on the first night of disorder. Its like dog training, if you dont establish dominance immediately, its going to be an increasingly uphill battle.

Fact: The government of France is unable to wrest control of the streets of its cities from a disorganized rabble armed mostly with sticks and rocks.

WTH?

 

[Hitro]

The reason its been spreading is because the weakness and ineptitude of the authorities, at all levels of government, is on display for all to see. An overwhelming show of force is what was necessary on the first night of disorder. Its like dog training, if you dont establish dominance immediately, its going to be an increasingly uphill battle.

Fact: The government of France is unable to wrest control of the streets of its cities from a disorganized rabble armed mostly with sticks and rocks.

WTH?

Guess Old Orleans is just like New Orleans, eh?

 

[Little Raven]

I know that I'm not going to get an actual answer to this (unless Marla, Krysz, or Steph have been doing stuff they haven't been telling us about), but what could anyone do to calm this, rather than crush this?

Obviously the situation has to be calmed. The dispute seems to be over how much force is required.

Obviously, if the mobs start to beat or kill people, or if property damage rises to a massive scale, then the government will have to step in with whatever force is required. But according to Marla, who actually lives there, the situation just isn't that bad. Cars are being burned and people are being arrested and police are facing resistance, but so far, nobody has been killed. That's very different from LA, where the mobs were tearing people out of their cars and leaving them in bloody wrecks on the side of the road.

But what everyone has to remember is that as exciting as today is, there will be a tomorrow. And so the calculus of damage control becomes more complicated. In the long run, having a few hundred cars get burned is a lot less damaging to the fabric of society than having a few dozen people get killed. Cars can be replaced and eventually get forgotten. That's true of people too, but it takes a lot longer.

Now it does sound like the roiting may be intensifying. If that's true, then sterner measures are going to have to be required.

 

[Grisu]

Guess Old Orleans is just like New Orleans, eh?

touché

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Guess Old Orleans is just like New Orleans, eh?

Its genetic! Actually its alot worse back in old Orleans. At least here it was just one city.

But according to Marla, who actually lives there, the situation just isn't that bad.

You mean the new Paris Information Minister?

 

[AceChilla]

Its genetic! Actually its alot worse back in old Orleans. At least here it was just one city.

You mean the new Paris Information Minister?

Nothing to see here, just pass along....

 

[Little Raven]

There seems to be some growing suspicion that the groups of rioters are being coordinated in some way. I'm not sure I buy that though...but it is feasible...

Depends on what you mean by 'organized.' If you mean that there's some shadowy power behind the scenes pulling strings...then yeah, you're in tin-foil hat land. If you mean that the rioters don't act like a disorganized mob but rather seem to spring up in a planned manner, then that's absolutely possible.

Welcome to the 20th century. Rioters have cells phones and Instant Messenger just like everyone else. With text messaging, they can have a riot on your doorstep in 30 minutes or your money back.

 

[silver 2039]

There seems to be some growing suspicion that the groups of rioters are being coordinated in some way. I'm not sure I buy that though...but it is feasible...

Its an Islamofascist coup Run for your lives(and surrender)!!!

 

[Little Raven]

You mean the new Paris Information Minister?

*shrug* Plenty of people here, yourself included, love to pile abuse on the mass media. Cries of bias, corporate subservience, and sensationalism are so routine I barely notice them.

Now all of a sudden the mass media machine is infallible and one of our members with almost 10,000 posts is a propaganda tool?

Whatever floats your boat, I guess…

 

[Princeps]

Troops!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I see, so you are not just a genocidal maniac in NES'es.

The radical solution is often the worst solution, sometimes, like in this case, even worse than the problem itself.

 

[IglooDame]

Depends on what you mean by 'organized.' If you mean that there's some shadowy power behind the scenes pulling strings...then yeah, you're in tin-foil hat land. If you mean that the rioters don't act like a disorganized mob but rather seem to spring up in a planned manner, then that's absolutely possible.

Welcome to the 20th century. Rioters have cells phones and Instant Messenger just like everyone else. With text messaging, they can have a riot on your doorstep in 30 minutes or your money back.

Hmmm... a very small jump from flash mobs to flash riots, eh?

 

[eyrei]

Depends on what you mean by 'organized.' If you mean that there's some shadowy power behind the scenes pulling strings...then yeah, you're in tin-foil hat land. If you mean that the rioters don't act like a disorganized mob but rather seem to spring up in a planned manner, then that's absolutely possible.

Welcome to the 20th century. Rioters have cells phones and Instant Messenger just like everyone else. With text messaging, they can have a riot on your doorstep in 30 minutes or your money back.

The possibility I am considering is that after the rioting started some enterprising person decided to take a leadership role and coordinate (to some extent) the actions of these rioters. However, if that were the case, they would no longer be simple rioters...

 

[Little Raven]

Hmmm... a very small jump from flash mobs to flash riots, eh?

Tiny. Ain't technology grand?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

*shrug* Plenty of people here, yourself included, love to pile abuse on the mass media. Cries of bias, corporate subservience, and sensationalism are so routine I barely notice them.

Now all of a sudden the mass media machine is infallible and one of our members with almost 10,000 posts is a propaganda tool?

Whatever floats your boat, I guess…

Its just a dumb joke, take a chill pill over there Sir Lancelot.

 

[Japher]

!!!!!!!!!

Chill pills should not just be taken! They should only be taken as your doctor recommends! Regardless of your knighthood!

 

[IglooDame]

The possibility I am considering is that after the rioting started some enterprising person decided to take a leadership role and coordinate (to some extent) the actions of these rioters. However, if that were the case, they would no longer be simple rioters...

And if there are any "coordinators" out there, they'd best keep their heads down because I'd imagine that at this point the government would want so badly to make an example out of them that they'd dust off a guillotine or two.

 

[Grisu]

*shrug* Plenty of people here, yourself included, love to pile abuse on the mass media. Cries of bias, corporate subservience, and sensationalism are so routine I barely notice them.

Now all of a sudden the mass media machine is infallible and one of our members with almost 10,000 posts is a propaganda tool?

Whatever floats your boat, I guess…

you should know better by now.. the media is only biased, sensationalist, etc... if they disagree with the poster's opinion....

personally, I tend to trust people who actually live there more, than the mainstream media...hell, I've seen pictures of riots that made you believe hole cities are ablaze, but in the end they turned out to be just minor riots.....

 

[anarres]

Again, I did not say it's their colour or religion. I only said it was immigrants, which is the bloody fact. Now Im perfectly aware of their problems with finding jobs, getting education, feeling like second class citizens etc. As I wrote actually, the problem is that we have been letting them in, faster than we have been integrating them into society.
I don't mind immigration, as long as the pace is not faster than we can handle it, but clearly it is at present.

Many are 2nd or 3rd generation. They are not immigrants but are French.

They have a different cultural background and are highly likely to be unable to find work:

Racial discrimination is banned in France. But a quick look at the people working in any shop or office suggests the practice is widespread.

The impression is confirmed by official statistics.

Unemployment among people of French origin is 9.2%. Among those of foreign origin, the figure is 14% - even after adjusting for educational qualifications.

This doesn't help people to feel incuded in a society.

As for shooting rioters....

Did you know how many people have died as part of this rioting? None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Shooting at rioters will massivly increase that number and inflame ALL the underlying tensions making the situation a whole lot worse. This is simple fact. It would be interesting if those who advocate shooting civilians (rioting or not) can state whether people in their country can carry firearms (like in the US), and how they can address this issue of shooting people escallating the violence.

 

[silver 2039]

So you are not just a genocidal maniac in NES'es.

Do you have a better suggestion pray tell? When there is a week of rioting and the police can do nothing to quash it then the military is needed. These rioters need to feel the consequences of their actions.

As I said before martial law, curfew and sending in the army should be enough to quell any rioting. The military prescense is usually enough.

If that still does'nt work then the traditonal riot control methods should be utilized, trunhons, rubber bullets, water cannons, tear gas, pepper spray, tasers, attack dogs etc.... (In India this stuff is too expensive so the people are simply beaten with bamboo sticks instead)

If it still continues then order the military to use lethal force. Simple enough. In all liklihood the rioting will cease at the first sign of military prescense.

These are the French after all.....
(j/k)

 

[Little Raven]

The possibility I am considering is that after the rioting started some enterprising person decided to take a leadership role and coordinate (to some extent) the actions of these rioters. However, if that were the case, they would no longer be simple rioters...

Again, what do you mean?

Get a gang of five kids together, and within 10 minutes, one of them will be calling most of the shots most of the time. That's just human nature. Does that mean the kid planned to take over and that the kids are now an 'organized body?'

Yes, I'm sure there are 'hubs,' if you will, within this. People who send out times and places to compiled lists of email addresses and cell phones. But are they really organized in any significant sense? Is there any kind of master plan or even shared goal beyond general chaos? I very much doubt it. Which, to me, at least, still leaves them in the category of rioters. Just sophisticated rioters.