Paris burning

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

When was the last time you heard something bad about the KK and something they did. They are very much a minority in American society and when they have done something bad we here the outcries of Americans against them. The thing is that we do not here outcries when Spme Muslims do some evil things. That is the difference. It is when a group of people who are actually being hurt by the minority of that group and yet they are not doing anything about it, then they are just as bad as the people they are not condemning.

Wrong ,they are condemned by other Muslims.However it isn't mediatized as much.But you seem to neglect these condemnations because of apparent insignificant volume? Do you really want to hear it said by every individual muslim on tv?

Extremists exist on either side or virtually any religion ,the even exist among Atheist. (if Stalin wasn't an extremist...) their maybe aint that much KKk'rs anymore ,but extremist are still of a compareble volume in cvitually every country ,regadles of religion or nationality.And we don't go explicitly condemning all these groups individually on tv neither arn't we?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

All I can say is you live in a different slice of the world than I do. Lets just leave it at that.

We can leave it at that if you wish, but I find it hard to believe you havent noticed that humanity has a tendency to form groups, which compete with each other.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

These extremists dont function in a vacuum. How could they function at all if every Muslim hand was turned against them? My own personal opinion is that the people we're talking about are extremists only in action, not in thought or ideology within the Islamic world.

Hitler didn't opperate in a vacuum neither ,but it was still a represive goverment wich eliminated all it's opposers and lied to it's supporters.Are we saying that by this there is something inheritly wrong with the German nature?

In addition ,the perception of terrorism has been skewed for political gains.If An Palestinian attacks a jewish border guard with an AK47 he is expicitly called a terrorist by Israeli instance's ,but a border guard is a combatant just as the gunman ,thats conventional ,and many Palestinians may support the gunman because of the political siuation.But are they therefore supporters of terrorism because their support in the Israeli/palestinian conflict?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Hitler didn't opperate in a vacuum neither ,but it was still a represive goverment wich eliminated all it's opposers and lied to it's supporters.Are we saying that by this there is something inheritly wrong with the German nature?

German nature? No. However at that time theres no denying that there was something drastically wrong in German society, problems which were fanned and made worse by Nazism. I believe that at this point in its history, Islamic culture is dysfunctional in many respects, and the extremists, like Hitler, fan the flames and make the situation worse and worse.

In addition ,the perception of terrorism has been skewed for political gains.If An Palestinian attacks a jewish border guard with an AK47 he is expicitly called a terrorist by Israeli instance's ,but a border guard is a combatant just as the gunman ,thats conventional ,and many Palestinians may support the gunman because of the political siuation.But are they therefore supporters of terrorism because their support in the Israeli/palestinian conflict?

I hope Im misunderstanding you here. Are you saying that an Israeli border guard who is shot dead by a Palestinian gunmen is on the same moral footing as the man who killed him? The Palestinian gunman is of course a terrorist, just as the Israeli Army officer who recently got on a bus filled with Palestinians and opened fire on them, was also a terrorist.

 

[Shaihulud]

Extremists exist on either side or virtually any religion ,the even exist among Atheist.

But don't you agree that Muslim as a group is more prone to this sentiment than others in this present age? Nowadays, everytime I open a paper, Muslims are involved with terrible things that takes place all over the world. Individually, Muslims are fine people among my friends and colleagues. Collectively they seems to create additional problems in society where they are not the dominant group, in this I am speaking from the experience of Singapore in the 60's where the Muslims were galvanized as a force and race riots broke out. Nowadays this issue is still a sensitive point and handled very carefully. I haven't really thought out the issue very much and I am not well versed with the Koran, but I find Bozo's point to be quite good. Islam ideologies as it is now interpreted might be incapable of reconciling with modern civilities and there is a clash of differing culture taking place now. The Catholic church was the old devil of the past as was communism, now Islam is taking its place. I am confident that like those the "bad" of it will be relegated to irelevance and Islam will be reformed.

 

[Princeps]

But don't you agree that Muslim as a group is more prone to this sentiment than others in this present age? Nowadays, everytime I open a paper, Muslims are involved with terrible things that takes place all over the world.

Why do you try to blame the Muslims for it, when there are so many far more logical explonations for the conflicts. Oh, you are biased against Islam, thats it.

No, Islam does not teach violence, if it isn't though. Same goes with Christianity, you can take verses from the bible and distort them to be supportive of violent activities, many do. Extremism exists in every religion and ideology... in atheism, communism, christianity, islam, hindusim, ETC, every religion has extremists, islam doesn't have any exceptional amount of extremists.

The reason why people even think that Islam is somehow pratically violent or try to "prove" that it is violent is because of the media.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

German nature? No. However at that time theres no denying that there was something drastically wrong in German society, problems which were fanned and made worse by Nazism. I believe that at this point in its history, Islamic culture is dysfunctional in many respects, and the extremists, like Hitler, fan the flames and make the situation worse and worse.

AH ,but now were talking on an other level.This is not the muslim line of thought anymore ,this is the political crcumstances line of aproach.It was not German culture that breeded hitler ,it were political circumstances ,backlkash of the Versaille treaty ,the 1929 Economical crash ,etc. Hitler didn't win on a program of religion ,but political circumstances.

And there we tough a whole different matter.The muslim world is filled with autocratic goverments.Like the Goverment of king Saud and all his sons in Saudi Arbabia ,joyfully supported by the USA.King Saud who has funded hundreds of madrassa. (wahabist religious schools)
Actually ,many proclaimed terrorist groups in the Muslim world are seperatist movements fighting Autocratic goverments.Indonesia for ex. have a bunch of those.Few terrorism takes an international character ,most terrorism has a local political goal ,i'm not justifying them by this ,i'm nuancating.Their actions do not stem from their religion ,but because of political circumstances.There wern't any palestinian terrorists before the Jews arrived for ex.

Osama bin Laden himself is a Saudi ,and a opposer of the goverment of Saud ,much of his hate towards the USA stems from the way the USA supported Saud sautocratic goverment.I think OBL thinks more political than most people perceive.

And not to underestimate post colonialism.take Iraq ,the most rotten construction the UK ever set up ,though there were more similar cases ,it needed an tirant to keep it toghether ,and know the tirant is gone it's a big mess.

IMO the political situation of the Muyslim world is a far greater origin to terrorism and extremism than pure religion is.
And as a final remark ,in the 11th to 14th century the Muslim world was of the most advanced society's in the world ,and it was far more pacifist and stable than it is now ,back then they had few reason for extremism ,that is as long thos christian crusaders didn't come to burn-pillage the region.Religion is not an origin ,it's a means of populist propaganda for terrorists ,just as anti-semetism was a means of populist propagnda for Hitler.To create a scapegoat for a defunct politcal situation.

I hope Im misunderstanding you here. Are you saying that an Israeli border guard who is shot dead by a Palestinian gunmen is on the same moral footing as the man who killed him? The Palestinian gunman is of course a terrorist, just as the Israeli Army officer who recently got on a bus filled with Palestinians and opened fire on them, was also a terrorist.

Nope ,the palestinian gunmen is not a terrorist ,because he fights by conventional methods ,terrorism is a form of vertical warfare.The israeli soldier is a paid combatant ,a fair game in a war.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Islam ideologies as it is now interpreted might be incapable of reconciling with modern civilities and there is a clash of differing culture taking place now. The Catholic church was the old devil of the past as was communism, now Islam is taking its place. I am confident that like those the "bad" of it will be relegated to irelevance and Islam will be reformed.

Very true, Catholicism not all that long ago was the problem, not Islam. If anything the Islamic world at that time, in comparison, was an enlightened, stabilizing force for good. Islam will continue to evolve, like all movements do.

 

[Drewcifer]

Look, guys, lets just try to be objective and look around at the world today. Is there any major conflict occuring that doesnt involve Muslims?

Well now that I can't sleep I guess I will try to answer your question. Looking at the last 15 years:

Where was Islam during the genocide in Rwanda?
Did it butcher 10,000 people in Srebrenica?
Did it starve Mugabe's opponents into submission in Zimbabwe?
Is it responsible for the Orange Order rioting in Northern Ireland earlier this year?
The ruthless drug gangs that run northern Mexico?
The Maoist insurgency in Nepal?
The civil war in Sierra Leone?
The civil war in Liberia?

These are just off of the top of my head.

Look at the body counts. Many of them dwarf the total victims of Islamic terrorism for the last 100 years in total.

Islam gets the press right now because it is what western media is focused on and it is the one that affects us.

Yes, most of these conflicts had sectarian causes. In fact most major violence is caused by group think and thoughts of group guilt and group revenge. But a lot of people don't think like that. Most of the multi-lateral institutions that were built after WWII were built by people who despised this way of thinking and wanted to build a better world. For a time they had the upper hand in many societies, including our own. Things have changed and we are going backwards. But there are more people on this earth who are not nearly as cynical as you than you think. So which side do you really want to be on? Kicking the Muslims out of our countries and bombing the hell out of them will not bring us peace.

 

[Shaihulud]

Why do you try to blame the Muslims for it, when there are so many far more logical explonations for the conflicts. Oh, you are biased against Islam, thats it

Why am I biased? It is the present situation existing within Muslim ideology that is to blame. Ideas are always in flux and change, todays ideologies are yesterdays heresies. You mentioned about distortion of the Bible, the Koran today is twisted to fit a certain mold that is hostile to western ideologies, many Muslims believe it in some degree or other, this is my take on the underlying root of much of the trouble with Islam.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Look at the body counts. Many of them dwarf the total victims of Islamic terrorism for the last 100 years in total.

And not by a small bit.Terrorism ,although heavily mediatized ,only produces relativly marginal casualty's.
September 11 ,3000 casualty's ,and it now dominates international politics for years.Is an merican life that more valuable? Atleast the US killed more by collateral dammge in Afhanistan or iraq than thiis 3000 figure ,and the total deathcount of those wars far exceed the 3000 count.

But it's just peanuts compared to the MILLIONS that perished in congo ,or Rwanda ,or now Darfur.We didn't even send our cat.

When America started it's war against terrorism ,it was an excelent way for many country's in the world to proclaim their opposing seperatists as terrorists ,jumping on the USA bandwagon was just profitable.

How many people die in the last 5 years by direct terrorist attacks? I guess even below the 10.000 mark.Sure it's not justified ,and it's 10.000 to many ,but the priority on anti-terrorism should dominate over anti-ethnic cleansing wich produces a far more astronomical deathcount.

 

[luiz]

On the subject of Muslims/Violence

Obviously, not all modern conflicts are caused by muslims. Also, I don't see how the Quoran is any more violent than the OT.

There is something, though, that makes the situation of muslims different from that of christians and jews. This is the fact that literal(and thus violent) interpretations of the OT are very rare, while literal interpretation of the Quoran are very common, and even the norm in some muslim nations.
Unlike the West, the Mid East never experienced an Enlightenment. Their religious dogmas are still largely medieval, and uncompatible with the norms of the modern world.

Islam needs to be reformed. Many muslims already believe in a "softned" version of their religion; what is necessary is to make that version the mainstream.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

On the subject of Muslims/Violence

Obviously, not all modern conflicts are caused by muslims. Also, I don't see how the Quoran is any more violent than the OT.

There is something, though, that makes the situation of muslims different from that of christians and jews. This is the fact that literal(and thus violent) interpretations of the OT are very rare, while literal interpretation of the Quoran are very common, and even the norm in some muslim nations.
Unlike the West, the Mid East never experienced an Enlightenment. Their religious dogmas are still largely medieval, and uncompatible with the norms of the modern world.

Islam needs to be reformed. Many muslims already believe in a "softned" version of their religion; what is necessary is to make that version the mainstream.

The west is filled with Stable democratic goverments ,the Muslim world is still mostly autocratic goverments.

Those few Muslim country's that do have stable goverments and are fairlyy democratic produce far less terrorists than the unstable country's do.Didn't see much Koewaiti terrorists yet ,otoh religion has suddently got a whole new interpretation in irraq it seems ,given the many terrorists now.Strange that Saddam was dethroned in the light of the war against terrorism ,he was actualy secular.

Is it religion that produced the new volumes of terrorists in iraq ,or the political circumstances?

The msulim religion has no need for reforms ,it's the interpretation certain people give it that needs reforms ,but these interpretations usually come from uneducated people ,living in unstable autocratic country's.

Therefore my comparison to the 11th to 14th century (and even before) ,back then muslims were civilized and europeans were a bunch of ragged farmers and knihts in constant warfare wicth eachother.and then the Europeans were religious fantatics ,and the muslim's wern't.Reason?political/social circumstances.

The Muslim world needs democracy ,feedom of press ,good educational body's.By providing jobs ,stabilety and knowledge the chance for these people to turn into terrorists will be reduced to virtually 0.

But we ,the West ,have a hand in that process.As ex. it's time that the USA stops it's support of autocratic goverments like Saudi Arabia's.

Btw ,last 2 pages have been virtually Off Topic ,we should try to get on topic again soon....

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Btw ,last 2 pages have been virtually Off Topic ,we should try to get on topic again soon....

Youre right, I think I was the one who made my own thread go OT Ok, without any further ado, todays Paris Burning update:

France records most violent night

Cities across France have been clearing up the ashes from the 10th - and most violent - night of rioting in mostly African and Arab communities.

Rioters burnt nearly 1,300 cars and more than 300 arrests were made in cities nationwide, from Nice on the Cote d'Azur to Strasbourg on the Rhine.

President Jacques Chirac has called security talks at the presidential palace in Paris.

Key government ministers have been holding consultations on the problem.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin called in police officers and teachers working in deprived areas for talks.

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy visited police officers overnight in the troubled Essonne and Val-de-Marne areas near Paris.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4412316.stm

Still after 10 days of increasing violence, all the government does is yak it up. Youd almost think they were CFC OTers

 

[Marla_Singer]

Still after 10 days of increasing violence, all the government does is yak it up. Youd almost think they were CFC OTers

Bozo Erectus. I've noticed you've ignored every one of my post in this thread. I'm desappointed as I used to believe you were someone able to listen other people. Especially those who live in the city where those events started.

I'm utterly shocked by foreign media spreading the idea that the French government let them burn cars. Just as if there were any rationality in this.

Since 2002, police has been strengthened in order to fight criminality (in the way of Rudolph Giuliani in NYC). The youngsters who burn cars do this mainly as a challenge towards police (and the one they see as their boss : Nicolas Sarkozy). There's only one way to restore order : Make the Police win. The big problem is that this little challenge against police has spread all over the country. And that's why, despite police doing its job (more than 1,000 people have been incarcerated since the beginning of violence), the violence continues to increase.

I guess this will continue during about 2 weeks... but it will end one day or another. And I hardly see how the cop wouldn't win this. In the end, there will be more people in French jail, but people who had to be enjailed anyway, so everything will be better for everyone.

 

[kryszcztov]

Yes, please could we go back on topic before a mod closes this for no reason ?

I can't believe the crap that I read in this thread, especially in the latest pages. Come on, this isn't a matter of religion or even culture, it's a matter of social integration that is at the root of the riots here. France is a well-known example of failed politics in this regard because, well, we're a big country in Europe and we suffered quite a lot from WWII. And I won't deny the suicidal politics that have been lead since then about immigrants. Let's put it in just one sentence :
The causes of those riots are to be found in the French politics.
It's not a matter of race, or religion, or whatever crap the news keep on entertaining you about in your comfy house.

Someone asked if the French posters were OK, thanks for caring. To put it simply, I haven't seen any direct action nor any consequence of that in RL myself, it is just news on radio/TV/Internet for me right now. Fortunately I don't live in such places, and I very rarely go there. Still, last night I drove back home, and passed through many different places in Paris itself, and noticed nothing (it seems that there were events in some districts), just the usual night traffic-jams (2am).

I also heard that those events are the most important ones of the kind since the Events in May '68, and I can just believe it, being based on facts like the events' length, the numbers of burned cars and arrestations... and it's not over yet ! Who knows what will happen tonight again ? Though those are important events, one shouldn't misjudge the reasons why they're important. So far, no one killed. And I tend to believe that the social level of such people for so much time is of more importance than some riots on a few days. The reasons for such riots are all known, since long. Also, don't believe all the crap delivered by the media, especially when they're on the front. The other day they talked about some Russian TV in the French streets, who were saying on their channel that those rioters were a dangerous threat for the State and seeked to get the power ! They have no real organization, no fire arms (at least not used on the cops), they don't kill people, but yet they're about to make a coup d'Etat ? It's not Tchetcheny here... Also, don't make your conclusions too quickly, like some (French as well) media do. One said that this is the "May '68 of the suburbs". Yeah right, like if in Autumn 1914 everyone talked about "WWI"... Don't believe all the media talk about, they're here to make money, you know.

But then I don't say it's a minor issue. It is a major issue. But not because they're threatening to destroy the country (sic). But because they're the expression of a real let-down in so many places of our country. THAT is important. Everyone agrees that the cops should arrest those people, etc... But thereafter ?


EDIT : TheDuckOfFlanders has been the smartest guy around in this thread so far (just on the subject of the riots, I won't comment on the off-topic). Please re-read his posts, they are interesting.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Marla I think the fact that its now a nationwide problem indicates that its no longer a strictly police matter. Does France have the equivelant of a National Guard? Police can make arrests when theyre able to catch them, but they arent equipped or trained to handle nationwide uprisings. Maybe I dont know what Im talking about, but this is sure how it looks to me: An election is approaching. The two men responsible for solving this crisis are DeVillepan and Sarkhozy, the two main candidates and rivals for office. So what happens? Neither does much of anything, for fear of making a misstep that could alienate voters. So the problem is allowed to grow and fester. Theyre merely reacting to the violence, the 'insurgents' have the initiative, not the authorities.

 

[Winner]

So it's worse and worse, cars and buildings are being burned by insurgents ( ). Our TV reported that the violence is spreading also into the inner parts of Paris and other French cities. One man was allegedly killed by a rioting band.

So, when the hell is the French government going to do something?

The police is obviously completely unable to stop the violence. Send in troops.

 

[kronic]

And what will they do?

 

[Winner]

And what will they do?

Guard the streets, for example?

According to my experience, people show much more respect to the soldiers than they do to policemen.