Paris burning

[betazed]

But you forget - India never had to suffer the depredations of violent revolution . We regained independence relatively painlessly - something which is a very great feat .

[off topic]
This is rather off-topic but since you bring it up I will reply. If we end up discussing this then it would be worthwhile to do so in another thread.

IMHO, your point of India winning its independence wihtout bloodshed is not valid. A lot of blood had been spilt by a lot of people who did not believe in non-violence (all the way back from 1857). At the end of the day neither violence (because it was not duly targeted and not centrally organized and did not have universal support - e.g Netaji's INA could have succeeded if they had national support) or non-violence (because inherently it was an ineffective strategy) gained India's independence. India gained independence because the British was just tired with the Raj and saw no more profit in it. With WWII going on they were withdrawing from all parts of their empire anyway (as they did in the Mid east). So withdrawal from India was on the cards. They left. Even if no one in India did anything in the last 4 years of the Raj, the British would have left. They would have withdrawn in 1942 had they not seen the oppurtunity of partition.

I would recommend you read "Freedom at Midnight" . Although some parts of it are hotly contested (and it heaps load of praise on Gandhi and makes him to be a saint) it is a pretty decent overview of Indian Independence movement.
[/off topic]

 

[kryszcztov]

What a great achievment. Is it even possible to be worse than the communists?

Already forgotten 2002 ? I don't think it's the communist votes that slingshot Le Pen onto the 2nd round... Besides, today's French communists are just sleepy bags. Or "nains de jardin" (for those who watched "Amelie", it's the object that Amelie steals to her father to go round the world).

If someone steal your car, it's your fault because you did not protect it correclty in the first place. The police should not try to find the thief afterward.

I just disagree with this.

Beside, now we have open borders in Europe, what if the illegal immigrants are coming from Spain or Italy? Why the French police shouldn't do its job in France if the Spanish or Italian cops failed to control the borders of Europe?

Maybe strong cooperation between police forces would have been necessary before opening the borders ? That still doesn't justify to annoy people all the time.

They are real foreigners, and not from Algerian-Tunisian descent. However, this has no effect on the job. We offers some jobs, they answered the add, they had the skills, they had the jobs. It would have been the same if they had been from Algerian-Tunisian descent. It would even have been a bit easier because hiring a foreigner requires more administrative work.

My point is that real foreigners usually come to France to do high studies (I have 2 of them as friends : one is finishing a good engineering school specialized in computing (and had almost succeeded in entering Polytechnique before !), the other one has finished Centrale Paris ). So my point was that it wouldn't surprise me if the 2 guys were real foreigners, since I expect your job to require high skills.

 

[Marla_Singer]

What's your point about real foreigners ? That we succeed better in France as immigrant than as the son or grand son of immigrant ?

That's plain wrong. There are plenty of sons or grand sons of immigrants, either black, arab, indian or asian, who succeeds. And I tell you this from my personal experience.

The big problem is that once someone coming from a cité succeeds and get a great job, the first thing he'll do will be to leave the cité. Unemployment and crime are so strong in those cités that it makes flee the best elements of those neighbourhoods. It's a kind of vicious circle, those neighbourhoods are employment repeller.

 

[Damnyankee]

Well, here are my two cents, I have never been to France and I do not know the plight of people in the suberbs of France, however, from my personal experience in NY, and especially in Brooklyn, which has quite a few poor slums, the people in France must feel very desperate, they must feel they have no shot, that they either mut fight for it, or simply cause as much destruction as possible, a full blown insurrection of sorts. Either way, the policy of France before this seems to be that these people should be kept in line, rather then trying to be helped. But it is too late for that, France screwed up, and it will never be the same.

 

[Princeps]

Small update on this : Rioters are shouting "Allah o Akbar" at the police . As I had predicted previously in this thread , Islam has ( again ! ) become the rallying point .

Not, really. They're shouting words. Islam has nothing to do with this, it is the squalor, crime ETC in their neighbourhood (sp?) which is the cause for the riots.

 

[sonorakitch]

Islam has nothing to do with this,

I beg to differ.

Islam has much to do with this present crisis. The recent headscarf law is just one of the things which has brought the Muslims of France to torch the cars.

~Chris

 

[Princeps]

I beg to differ.

Islam has much to do with this present crisis. The recent headscarf law is just one of the things which has brought the Muslims of France to torch the cars.

~Chris

The Turkish President (or PM, who ever it was) might claims so, but headscarf doesn't really matter when you cannot get a job, you're being trethened by drug dealers ETC.

 

[Damnyankee]

I beg to differ.

Islam has much to do with this present crisis. The recent headscarf law is just one of the things which has brought the Muslims of France to torch the cars.

~Chris

I seriously doubt that Islam really started this, it is horrible poverty, and the government generally not giving a damn about the welfare of these people. However, I believe Islam will sooner or later play a role, as terriost organizations will use these riots to recruit more members. Basically, French apathy has doomed France to a fractious future, and even if France restores order, things will never be the same.

 

[Masquerouge]

I beg to differ.

Islam has much to do with this present crisis. The recent headscarf law is just one of the things which has brought the Muslims of France to torch the cars.

~Chris

Nonsense. First, it is not the Muslims of France who are torching cars. 99% of French Muslims are law-abiding citizens who want nothing to do with the riots.
Second, what you call the headscarf law is accepted and enforced by 99% of the French Muslims. Only a handful of heavily mediated cases posed problems, and now it is no longer an issue in France.
Third, people torching the cars are first of all, and before everything else, youg people turned thugs by poverty and living in ghettos. They are using the islamic rethoric to look important and cool, but anyone just slighty aware of what Islam is about knows it is not about torching cars. And not all rioters are Muslim, far from it.

So your comment shows a poor understanding of Islam, the French society, and the riots.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Well, here are my two cents, I have never been to France and I do not know the plight of people in the suberbs of France, however, from my personal experience in NY, and especially in Brooklyn, which has quite a few poor slums, the people in France must feel very desperate, they must feel they have no shot, that they either mut fight for it, or simply cause as much destruction as possible, a full blown insurrection of sorts. Either way, the policy of France before this seems to be that these people should be kept in line, rather then trying to be helped. But it is too late for that, France screwed up, and it will never be the same.

I agree with this. However, you're wrong in the conclusion. At the opposite, things will never change. It's been 30 years it's the same and it will never change. For things to change unemployment must disappear of this country. And this will never happen. Hence, it's a hopeless situation. France is a hopeless country.

 

[aneeshm]

I seriously doubt that Islam really started this, it is horrible poverty, and the government generally not giving a damn about the welfare of these people. However, I believe Islam will sooner or later play a role, as terriost organizations will use these riots to recruit more members. Basically, French apathy has doomed France to a fractious future, and even if France restores order, things will never be the same.

Islam did not have much of a role in starting this , but it has ( and will , from now on have ) become a major rallying point for these people .

 

[Marla_Singer]

Islam has much to do with this present crisis. The recent headscarf law is just one of the things which has brought the Muslims of France to torch the cars.

Sorry I hadn't seen that one coming. It's a good joke.

Anyway, people rioting are kids who have no future. Of course they have foreign parents or grand parents, from Morocco, Haiti, Cameroon, Mali, Tunisia, or Benin. Religions of their parents are irrelevant.

 

[Masquerouge]

I agree with this. However, you're wrong in the conclusion. At the opposite, things will never change. It's been 30 years it's the same and it will never change. For things to change unemployment must disappear of this country. And this will never happen. Hence, it's a hopeless situation. France is a hopeless country.

I think France has been through worse than that. After all, it took quite a long time, and lots of violence, before the Italian migrants were fully accepted in France.
Don't start going the "France is a doomed country" way, it's sooooo like 'Capital' (the TV show, not the book )

 

[Marla_Singer]

I think France has been through worse than that. After all, it took quite a long time, and lots of violence, before the Italian migrants were fully accepted in France.
Don't start going the "France is a doomed country" way, it's sooooo like 'Capital' (the TV show, not the book )

Mais oui mon cher ! Tout va bien madame la Marquise !

Seriously, France is a country which is viscerally blocked. Any attempt to improve the competitiveness of the country in order to bring back jobs in this place are condemned as being "les libéraux" (the evil corporatism) taking over the country. How could anything change ? The country is falling continuously and as long as the selfish interest of few powerful lobbies is guaranteed, people are satisfied. People are against any change !

I don't see any way out. During years I've told myself that one day or another things will change and the economy will get back on track. But that can't happen magically. You have to make it so that it become possible. And that's utterly impossible since the country is blocked at all level of the society. You want to change the smallest tiny thing and it's considered as the apocalypse coming.

Instead of convincing ourselves that everything is fine, we should accept we're going straight to the wall.

 

[Little Raven]

Marla's just echoing a common theme. For some reason, the world is looking a lot less hopeful to Western eyes these days than it did just 10 years ago. That sentiment resonates from Japan to Germany, with the US being no exception.

But it's really not hopeless. It's just hard.

 

[kryszcztov]

What's your point about real foreigners ? That we succeed better in France as immigrant than as the son or grand son of immigrant ?

No, not really. I'd be interested to see a graph showing how just plain immigrants succeed, compared to people descending from immigrants but being French. When a foreigner is a peasant, he doesn't come to France. When a foreigner is a high-skilled computing engineer, he may be tempted to come to France, Britain or the USA, instead of staying in Algers, Casablanca or Abidjan. You get the point ? My point is that it is not surprising to see real foreigners (who don't have the French nationality and might one day leave for another country) succeed here, since they usually come here because they know before hand that they'll succeed. See my point now ?

 

[klazlo]

Think about this:

Islam earned a label for being troublemaker among many Westerners. Let's not debate on how they earned it for a moment.
What is important is that now every riot that involves Muslims will eventually turn into a Muslim riot. (In this case it is about poverty and not religion, and even if someone has a better chance to be poor if this person is a Muslim, I doubt that religious problems are the real causes.)
Politicians will label this as a Muslim riot, because it is easily recognizable by the public - and these politicians will always try to win the public. An average westerner might not show much interest when it is about poverty (especially if some "inferior" race is in poverty in some crappy suburb where they don't ever go anyway), but rally much faster if the threat of Islam is portrayed in the corporate media in a simplified way.
And from the rioters' viewpoint: if they are labeled as scum, they will behave like that. If they are labeled as Muslims, they will shout Allah. They just get back on the system as they can. Who expects them to stop and go into sophisticated arguments that "sorry, we're not really scum and this is a big misunderstanding, and we're not all Muslims... blah blah blah". That's not how group dynamics work.

 

[kryszcztov]

You want to change the smallest tiny thing and it's considered as the apocalypse coming.

And yet you keep on annoying us with your democracy thingie (not earlier than yesterday) ? You seem to be contradicting yourself. Yesterday you were saying that I could just propose a new law if I didn't like the current one, that sounded like a very easy thing to do. This doesn't detract me from disagreeing with you about our supposed doomed situation. As much I don't believe in God, I won't believe in Paco Rabanne -like people, dancing on D-Day theories... You may have some hard time accepting it, since it seems you're well into the political and economical world.

I once attended an economics class, and though I didn't learn much (me lazy), the most important thing I learned was that policies aren't meant to be driven by the economical situation, even though they're affected by the environment. When the State wants something, it can be done, even in a globalized economical environment like now. That's why I don't think things will change much in France, but please, no more "France is doomed". I'm well alive and hope to get a job soon (though it is very uncertain).

 

[Masquerouge]

I don't see any way out. During years I've told myself that one day or another things will change and the economy will get back on track.

And how old are you ?

Instead of convincing ourselves that everything is fine, we should accept we're going straight to the wall.

that is a great way to start improving on things, indeed. You're not one to settle for middle grounds, are you ?

Two things are dead wrong : blind optimism and constant pessimism. But at least optimists are happy.

But I guess this should be debated in another thread !

 

[Marla_Singer]

And yet you keep on annoying us with your democracy thingie (not earlier than yesterday) ? You seem to be contradicting yourself. Yesterday you were saying that I could just propose a new law if I didn't like the current one, that sounded like a very easy thing to do. This doesn't detract me from disagreeing with you about our supposed doomed situation. As much I don't believe in God, I won't believe in Paco Rabanne -like people, dancing on D-Day theories... You may have some hard time accepting it, since it seems you're well into the political and economical world.

So your point is that as you seem to agree law is impossible to change, your position is to make law irrelevant in order to get rid of the issue ? Interesting point of view.

Est-ce que tu es libertaire ? (I don't know how to say "libertaire" in English).

I once attended an economics class, and though I didn't learn much (me lazy), the most important thing I learned was that policies aren't meant to be driven by the economical situation, even though they're affected by the environment. When the State wants something, it can be done, even in a globalized economical environment like now. That's why I don't think things will change much in France, but please, no more "France is doomed". I'm well alive and hope to get a job soon (though it is very uncertain).

I'm in the same position as you are. I also hope to get a job soon. My point isn't to be pessimistic, I know things can change, but people have to realize that major changes have to be done in this country and that we can't continue longer in this way. They aren't prepared for this yet. That's all.