Patriarchy Debate

[Borachio]

So you think womanity are just making a fuss about nothing every time they bump their pretty little curly-haired heads against the glass ceiling?

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

I see you are evading the question. In the off chance it's a real question I haven't read alot of war books or the Babysitters Club so not sure.

No, just clarifying what I'm talking about when I say the word "career". Neither of the examples you mentioned are typical career paths mentioned in resume clinics, practice interviews, or networking events.

 

[Snorrius]

So you think womanity are just making a fuss about nothing every time they bump their pretty little curly-haired heads against the glass ceiling?

Womanity -- in all times -- tries to maximize its profits from manity using this or that discourse (transcending from individual level of manipulation to collective indoctrination of men): long-term in case of "chivalry", short-term in case of "feminism".

I hope one day we will shake off the chains of oppression by feminine discourse and create a better womanity anew. Seems like using a rib was wrong idea.

 

[aelf]

All the transgendered people will be thrilled to know they've really made a big fuss over nothing.

I thought transgender was largely about transcending social conventions regarding gender identities. I didn't know it was about transcending some immutable truths about mutable categories of gender. Please, teach me more.

 

[Yeekim]

I thought transgender was largely about transcending social conventions regarding gender identities. I didn't know it was about transcending some immutable truths about mutable categories of gender. Please, teach me more.

I didn't know social conventions required surgery and hormone therapy to transcend...

 

[aelf]

Oh, so you were talking about sex, then?

 

[Yeekim]

They usually insist on changing sex alongside with gender, don't they? Kind of shows those are still related.

 

[Flying Pig]

The question seems complicated, but I don't know how you'll disentangle them as long as we have a society that (for good reasons) almost always assumes that sex and gender are the same thing. It's hardly surprising that somebody thinking 'I am a woman and want to act like one' would want to have the 'right' genitals to go along with a wardrobe full of dresses and habit of crossing their legs when sitting down, because what they have come to understand, through being part of our society all of their lives, is that a 'woman' is marked out by those physical traits as well as those behaviours. I would suspect, though, that it's entirely possible to have a society in which sex and gender are distinct concepts (indeed, a fair few have three genders), in which case somebody who feels that they are treated as the 'wrong' gender would not necessarily feel compelled to change sex.

 

[aelf]

They usually insist on changing sex alongside with gender, don't they? Kind of shows those are still related.

And have nothing to do with 'natural' choices of occupation.

 

[Hygro]

This patriarchy thing is a bit of a nonsense. Western societies that were allegedly highly sexist against women sent tens of millions of men to their deaths in wars just for being men, while having 'women and children first' ethics towards life saving. Since our elites decided they wanted women in the workforce for a more productive economy, our society is now allegedly less sexist. Now it punishes women for having families and stigmatizes those who do not give up healthy reproduction in service of their economic overlords.

There are two different premise-realms in this post and the bolded one of them I find quite relevant.

 

[Tahuti]

There is no society in history that has not been patriarchal. While matrilineal, matrilocal, and matrifocal societies are known and not uncommon, no matriarchal society has even been discovered. Our own society may be the first where a non-patriarchy is even possible, but current feminist myths serve 'patriarchy' very well. I guess if you want a society like that of the meerkats, where senior females force weaker ones to have abortions whenever they get pregnant, this is the way to go--though of course we, being loftier beings than the primitive meerkat, we will be nice and civilized and use social and economic pressure rather than direct violence for our anti-patriarchal ends.

Thing is, the concept of male domination is new as well. 'Patriarchical' societies didn't picture themselves as societies in which males dominated females. Rather, males and females are to be considered fit for different sets of duties, though ultimately equal in worth.

The idea that the male-female relationship is skewered in favour of one sex - a staple of MRA and feminist ideology - is a rather novel concept.

 

[JollyRoger]

Just go read Volume 1 of the U.S. Reports and explain coverture as not favoring one gender over the other.

 

[Narz]

All the transgendered people will be thrilled to know they've really made a big fuss over nothing.

Right, either gender is a big deal or it isn't.

 

[Narz]

There are two different premise-realms in this post and the bolded one of them I find quite relevant.

I don't buy her premise :

"A truly equal world would be one where women ran half of our countries and companies and men ran half of our homes."

She's putting a lot of pressure on other women, did she stop to ask if 50% of women want to run companies or countries? Or if 50% of women want their men taking care of the house & family (many women would never want to allow their man to manage their domestic life)?

I think she's falling victim to the "everyone should think like me" mentality which is extremely common, especially amongst the conventionally successful who think if everyone was like them the world would be perfect.

Not all "equality" is preferable. For example men are generally taller than women & both men and women tend to like it better that way (likewise generally men prefer to women a little younger & women prefer to date men a little older).

I believe people should be free to live the lives they choose. Forcing 50% of women into managerial positions & 50% of men into the kitchen based on some artificial notion of equality is absurd.

Maybe the article gets better but it was hard to read beyond the first quote.

 

[Hygro]

I don't buy her premise :

"A truly equal world would be one where women ran half of our countries and companies and men ran half of our homes."

She's putting a lot of pressure on other women, did she stop to ask if 50% of women want to run companies or countries? Or if 50% of women want their men taking care of the house & family (many women would never want to allow their man to manage their domestic life)?

I think she's falling victim to the "everyone should think like me" mentality which is extremely common, especially amongst the conventionally successful who think if everyone was like them the world would be perfect.

Not all "equality" is preferable. For example men are generally taller than women & both men and women tend to like it better that way (likewise generally men prefer to women a little younger & women prefer to date men a little older).

I believe people should be free to live the lives they choose. Forcing 50% of women into managerial positions & 50% of men into the kitchen based on some artificial notion of equality is absurd.

Maybe the article gets better but it was hard to read beyond the first quote.

That's like us not liking your post above because we didn't like my quote at the start of it.

 

[Flying Pig]

I don't buy her premise :

"A truly equal world would be one where women ran half of our countries and companies and men ran half of our homes."

She's putting a lot of pressure on other women, did she stop to ask if 50% of women want to run companies or countries? Or if 50% of women want their men taking care of the house & family (many women would never want to allow their man to manage their domestic life)?

I think she's falling victim to the "everyone should think like me" mentality which is extremely common, especially amongst the conventionally successful who think if everyone was like them the world would be perfect.

Not all "equality" is preferable. For example men are generally taller than women & both men and women tend to like it better that way (likewise generally men prefer to women a little younger & women prefer to date men a little older).

I believe people should be free to live the lives they choose. Forcing 50% of women into managerial positions & 50% of men into the kitchen based on some artificial notion of equality is absurd.

Maybe the article gets better but it was hard to read beyond the first quote.

Part of the problem, though, is that society conditions what we want to do - if you're born male, for example, you're told from a very early age that it's good to want to be a soldier, a fireman or a rocket scientist, and not good to want to be a florist. So we need a way of not tying life choices so rigidly to gender, when that isn't necessary. For example, it may be true that soldiers need to be strong, and that most men are stronger than most women, but it isn't good for anyone if weak men are made to feel inadequate for not being 'good enough' to be soldiers, and strong women are made to feel bad for wanting the 'wrong' career.

 

[bhavv]

As a weak man I agree with the above.

 

[aelf]

Right, either gender is a big deal or it isn't.

Gender is a big deal, but so are gender stereotypes.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I refer everyone to Robert Filmer's "Patriarcha, or the Natural Power of Kings" for more details.

I refer everyone to the thorough rebuttal in John Locke's "Two Treatises of Government: In the Former, The False Principles, and Foundation of Sir Robert Filmer, and His Followers, Are Detected and Overthrown. The Latter Is an Essay Concerning The True Original, Extent, and End of Civil Government"

 

[bhavv]

I can't even do one push up.