sophie
Break My Heart
Are planks ok?
PD of PDMA
- Thread starter RobAnybody
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Are planks ok?
Due to the mechanics of the vBulletin system, it's possible to delete / move / edit things without fully understanding how they will be displayed to other posters. At least, that's the case for people like me who are new to the system. I know that I've done things in an improper order and that's resulted in confusion. The more experienced the moderator team, the less likely this is to happen in the future.
But I totally get that's it's bizarre and frustrating - it has happened to me several times.
Indeed - I don't see anyone posting here who doesn't post in The Tavern or The Chamber.
Yes, keep it focused
Hmmm...does that mean you do want to create work for those of us listed there?
BTW, the reorg of the moderators and their status has not been forgotten.
My records indicate that I have not created work for anyone on that list since October 2011.Hmmm...does that mean you do want to create work for those of us listed there?
Bravo then my fine fellow! 
Yes indeed.
You're forgetting the snarky pointdodging remarks that have come from some mods.
During my time as a moderator, I NEVER left it at that. I always explained the situation in my own words, especially when the infractee asked for further explanation.
I consider it lazy and disrespectful for the moderator to just parrot the rules link, and to those moderators who were annoyed by my requests for further explanation: I've said it before, and I'll say it now... the quicker you provide me with the answers I ask for, in a way I understand, the quicker I'll shut up and leave you alone.
It's been my experience that taking the time to explain things and find out if there are any misunderstandings going on can lead to Good Things and an Amicable Relationship between staff and members.
As far as I'm concerned, any moderator who doesn't feel the members are worth this effort shouldn't be a moderator.
Maniacal
the green Napoleon
I find it hilarious how sometimes the staff can be so paranoid about (usually) pretty harmless PDMA. You'd think they are worried it would cause a rebellion or osmething sometimes.
SamSniped
DJ Goodboye
I support the idea of logs in the Tavern.
And Maniacal, mod actions caused one or two "rebellions" once
And Maniacal, mod actions caused one or two "rebellions" once
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2001
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Agreed. But then there are certain members who will continue to argue, and argue and argue.
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As for this particular issue: the forum software does not support automated logging threads (even the administrator tools for moderator logs are not useful for this purpose).
My view is that in general posts and threads should not be deleted, and I have reminded staff of this.
Buster's Uncle
AC2 Owner
Coincidentally, minutes before I discovered this thread, I posted the following elsewhere as part of a discussion of Chairman Yang, ruler of the totalitarian Hive in SMAC(X):
I could care less about the OTs here, because the only time I ever set foot in one, I got nerdbadged instantly. I'm not a kid, and I'm not a masochist, and I don't post where staff and policy's set up to cheese me off and disrespect me. Thunderfall's house and Thunderfall's rules, fine, but Thunderfall's going to have to do without my regular contributions anywhere but the one subforum where the moderator is known to me to be a mature adult with a good attitude and nothing to prove.
Honestly, I'm the Admin at my own thriving forum, not simply a member with authority issues. I think hard about stuff like this all the time, and I must say that there is an invisible price CFC pays for authoritarian management policy and treating people harshly - all the people who react the same way I do to ALL CAPS, HIGH-HANDED RED COMMANDMENTS and aren't here to speak up as a result. You couldn't ban them! They QUIT!
The topic of this thread is simply bad policy, IMAO. I say this without opprobrium and in the spirit of helpfulness. Mostly.
Not to be snotty about it, but that's a point relevant to this discussion.
I could care less about the OTs here, because the only time I ever set foot in one, I got nerdbadged instantly. I'm not a kid, and I'm not a masochist, and I don't post where staff and policy's set up to cheese me off and disrespect me. Thunderfall's house and Thunderfall's rules, fine, but Thunderfall's going to have to do without my regular contributions anywhere but the one subforum where the moderator is known to me to be a mature adult with a good attitude and nothing to prove.
Honestly, I'm the Admin at my own thriving forum, not simply a member with authority issues. I think hard about stuff like this all the time, and I must say that there is an invisible price CFC pays for authoritarian management policy and treating people harshly - all the people who react the same way I do to ALL CAPS, HIGH-HANDED RED COMMANDMENTS and aren't here to speak up as a result. You couldn't ban them! They QUIT!
The topic of this thread is simply bad policy, IMAO. I say this without opprobrium and in the spirit of helpfulness. Mostly.
The problem: You think about reasonable people.
There are not only.
And the unreasonable ones are also the ones who make the biggest fuss.
Nobody would object talking and explaining stuff to a reasonable person. But you don't want to have a 10 pages long thread where someone doesn't understand that "you're a moron" is an insult, and insists on his freedom of speech.
You don't want to explain anything, if the first PM you get afterwards consists only out of insults.
You don't want to tell it over and over again that the infraction was for the actual insult, and no, that you don't have a personal agenda against that person, that calling someone an idiot was the problem, and not anything else.
Yes, I gave you also the second warning, but it doesn't mean I'm hunting you, I have something better to do with my time.
Yes, I know there's freedom of speech, but no, you're not allowed to call for violence against another forum user.
Yes, I know, we can see naked tits everywhere in the net, on half of your local newspapers, and all evening in TV. But not here, please freakin' accept our rules.
Do you understand what "no public discussion of moderator action means"? Yes? Why did you then do it directly in the next post? Can you not just follow the rules?
No, you can't harrass other people because they help other people. What is wrong with you?
No, this discussion about whoever is or is not included in Civ XYZ is NOT suitable for a discussion about the holocaust. Or Israel. Or Stalin. Yes, thank you, that makes me a Nazi, and I hate freedom.
(nothing made up here)
Seriously, there are times when it doesn't make sense to explain stuff to people, because they don't want to understand. Or don't care.
There are more than enough reasonable people. But the idiots are the problem, and the rules are made to make dealing with them as easy as possible, because they cause the most trouble.
There are not only.
And the unreasonable ones are also the ones who make the biggest fuss.
Nobody would object talking and explaining stuff to a reasonable person. But you don't want to have a 10 pages long thread where someone doesn't understand that "you're a moron" is an insult, and insists on his freedom of speech.
You don't want to explain anything, if the first PM you get afterwards consists only out of insults.
You don't want to tell it over and over again that the infraction was for the actual insult, and no, that you don't have a personal agenda against that person, that calling someone an idiot was the problem, and not anything else.
Yes, I gave you also the second warning, but it doesn't mean I'm hunting you, I have something better to do with my time.
Yes, I know there's freedom of speech, but no, you're not allowed to call for violence against another forum user.
Yes, I know, we can see naked tits everywhere in the net, on half of your local newspapers, and all evening in TV. But not here, please freakin' accept our rules.
Do you understand what "no public discussion of moderator action means"? Yes? Why did you then do it directly in the next post? Can you not just follow the rules?
No, you can't harrass other people because they help other people. What is wrong with you?
No, this discussion about whoever is or is not included in Civ XYZ is NOT suitable for a discussion about the holocaust. Or Israel. Or Stalin. Yes, thank you, that makes me a Nazi, and I hate freedom.
(nothing made up here)
Seriously, there are times when it doesn't make sense to explain stuff to people, because they don't want to understand. Or don't care.
There are more than enough reasonable people. But the idiots are the problem, and the rules are made to make dealing with them as easy as possible, because they cause the most trouble.
Buster's Uncle
AC2 Owner
You know, I lost a member just a few days ago because I edited some terminology that got by the swear filter. He actually mentioned the first amendment as he left.
You're not telling me anything I didn't already know.
In managing my own place, I do what's right in preference to what's easy. Luck has been with me, but so has the mature culture we established. I get people who volunteer how they've lurked for years to avoid the inept moderation typically found on 4xd game boards, until they found us.
God, that sounds so hopelessly conceited, but I don't know a better way to make the point. By treating them with respect, we draw a crowd who makes managing them as easy as could be imagined. -It'll never happen here, because the culture is all wrong.
You're not telling me anything I didn't already know.
In managing my own place, I do what's right in preference to what's easy. Luck has been with me, but so has the mature culture we established. I get people who volunteer how they've lurked for years to avoid the inept moderation typically found on 4xd game boards, until they found us.
God, that sounds so hopelessly conceited, but I don't know a better way to make the point. By treating them with respect, we draw a crowd who makes managing them as easy as could be imagined. -It'll never happen here, because the culture is all wrong.
That's now rather a philosophical area, if respect has to be gained, or if you deserve some by default.
Because if someone comes here to troll and insult, then they don't get any respect.
Because if someone comes here to troll and insult, then they don't get any respect.
How many members do you have? Size is everything. A steady 200 posters all the time is not the same as a steady 2000.
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- 30,080
The framework that allows a culture to be developed and grown comes somewhat from the forums rules and the moderation of those rules, but it also comes a lot from the members.
We have a number of sub-cultures (sub-communities is probably a better term) at CFC. The alpha centauri forum is one example. The HOF, the GOTM, the Creation and Customization areas are other sub-communities. I use these examples because these are areas where moderation is very light, because there simply aren't very many issues that are raised that need moderation. Yet they are all bound by the same rules, yet have developed a different culture.
As I see it, this is successful because of the members. These entire sub communities are there with a somewhat common goal; be it sharing of strategies, displaying their artwork, helping others and getting help in return. They do not come to argue.
The 'argue' forums are the most difficult. This is not just "off topic". This also tends to be the general discussions forum for whatever is the most recent civ version iteration. It brings in new people who bring their own ideas on what a forum culture should be, and behave how they think that they should be able to behave. It actually means these forums grow in their own direction, and the moderators are tasked with trying to steer the culture back to something that aligns with our vision: a place for people to discuss and learn about this amazing game franchise, in a place that promotes mature debate (not insults). It is not an easy task, and grows exponentially harder with the number of participants.
I absolutely agree that moderation is, first and foremost, about respect for people (and not blind adherence to enforcement of the rules). But it is a two-way street, and forum members need to show respect for each other. If I lose a vocal forum member who is abusive to other forums members, then that is far more preferable than losing one (or twenty) forum members who may be less vocal, or silent, but don't want to read or be on the end of that abuse. Ideally, I'd prefer that the insulting forum member develops respect for others, and stays to make a more positive contribution.
We do try to listen to what the members want, to an extent. Our (relatively) recent change to the off-topic forum has been to try to split it into areas where this who want to argue and insult each other can do so (within reason - "don't be a jerk"), while there is also a place where debate is encouraged to be more mature. Have we got that right? Probably not. This thread is an example of that. But this thread is not so much about the forum culture, as about the moderator culture. I have provided my steer to the moderation team about this, and hopefully it steers things towards improvement.
What you are seeing from The_J are some examples of the crap that the moderation team have to put up with. The biggest challenge for them is to continue to maintain treating people with respect, when they often don't get the same in kind. Moderating can make people extremely cynical, and it takes a special type of patience to do it well.
Where we have got it wrong, we need to own our own issues. That is about maturity, and that is about respect for people. However, posters need to own theirs' as well. In general, we have an excellent and vibrant community, and an excellent staff team (not just moderators, all the staff).
I'm an engineer. Inherently, this means that i don't understand people! But nowadays, both here and in real life, it is critical that I do. So I am trying to do better. I absolutely value this sort of feedback, but turning it into meaningful improvement is the challenging bit.
A final comment: I recently attended a workshop on dealing with underperformance of staff in the workplace. The presenter noted that in virtually every staff engagement survey in every workplace he had seen, "dealing with underperformance" was seen as an area that companies did badly. He noted that he was not surprised, and that in terms of managers dealing with staff underperformance, that "respect for people" means that this should be done one-on-one, adult to adult. I.e. Getting the best out of people is not about publicly kicking them when they do something wrong. If we relate this to the moderating team here, then a public flogging (PDMA threads) is highly unlikely to get the best out of staff (moderators), particularly if it is from a disgruntled forum member with an axe to grind. If it is a genuine fault, then if someone wants to give me (or the other admins) some objective feedback about one of my staff (or myself), then I am more than happy to consider it and act on it. It would be great if when the staff do a good job, that the community could feed that back, too.
Disclaimer: I am speaking as one who spends 90% of my CFC time in the Creation & Customization forums, so my view may be different from others.
That said, I think that if you are a reasonable person, the people who you want to be in whatever community you are in will also be reasonable, and those people are the ones who won't cause the moderators too much trouble. That is thankfully the vast majority of CFCers. However this is still the Internet and you will still despite your best efforts have trolls. I haven't ever moderated a forum myself, but in my real life the only strategy I know that works with trolls is to walk away from them. In the forum analogy, this would mean deleting/infracting the things that they do in violation of the rules, and if they really don't know how to stop, banning them for a period of time. PDMA is a policy because the people who are upset and will discuss mod actions in public are normally trolls, and that discussion only feeds the trolls, something that should never be done.
C&C thankfully does not have too many issues with this, but I have unfortunately been on the receiving end of one of the few trolls there (I won't mention any names) who bothered me and others on the Caveman2Cosmos mod team about a nonexistent issue on and off for more than a year. Even when it was explained that the issue he was upset about did not in fact actually happen he still took an adversarial attitude towards members of the mod(ding) team personally. In that case public discussion of any moderator actions involved (I'm not even sure there were any besides some infractions) would serve only to feed this troll and cause tempers to flare even more severely. This would clearly be bad for the community of helpful sharing we try and maintain in C&C.
If there is a legitimate grievance (such as the case that the OP and others mentioned about a mostly OK thread vanishing into thin air over the actions of a few) PMing mods normally works to resolve the issue, as in my experience the moderation team of CFC are very reasonable and willing to explain what is going on. But I fully understand how they could feel that a 'hardliner' stance is the only way to deal with people who aren't reasonable and want to ruin the forum experience for the rest of us.
I'm sure I've rambled on far too long on this, but that is my 2cp on this issue.
That said, I think that if you are a reasonable person, the people who you want to be in whatever community you are in will also be reasonable, and those people are the ones who won't cause the moderators too much trouble. That is thankfully the vast majority of CFCers. However this is still the Internet and you will still despite your best efforts have trolls. I haven't ever moderated a forum myself, but in my real life the only strategy I know that works with trolls is to walk away from them. In the forum analogy, this would mean deleting/infracting the things that they do in violation of the rules, and if they really don't know how to stop, banning them for a period of time. PDMA is a policy because the people who are upset and will discuss mod actions in public are normally trolls, and that discussion only feeds the trolls, something that should never be done.
C&C thankfully does not have too many issues with this, but I have unfortunately been on the receiving end of one of the few trolls there (I won't mention any names) who bothered me and others on the Caveman2Cosmos mod team about a nonexistent issue on and off for more than a year. Even when it was explained that the issue he was upset about did not in fact actually happen he still took an adversarial attitude towards members of the mod(ding) team personally. In that case public discussion of any moderator actions involved (I'm not even sure there were any besides some infractions) would serve only to feed this troll and cause tempers to flare even more severely. This would clearly be bad for the community of helpful sharing we try and maintain in C&C.
If there is a legitimate grievance (such as the case that the OP and others mentioned about a mostly OK thread vanishing into thin air over the actions of a few) PMing mods normally works to resolve the issue, as in my experience the moderation team of CFC are very reasonable and willing to explain what is going on. But I fully understand how they could feel that a 'hardliner' stance is the only way to deal with people who aren't reasonable and want to ruin the forum experience for the rest of us.
I'm sure I've rambled on far too long on this, but that is my 2cp on this issue.
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