Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[Bucephalus]

Good going. I agree that upgrading one regular warrior was necessery under the circumstances. Once we get the north populated we won't be seeing any more barbarians in the game for a long time I'd guess.

Some questions..

1. Is that galley barbarian? If not, has it dropped anything yet?

Yes, and no.

2. The worker 1W1SW of Moscow... does it have another worker under it or a warrior?

A Worker.

3. I notice St. Petes isn't growing. Did you maximize the shields in order to get the SoZ faster or what?

Yeah, it shaved off 1 turn, and wasn't due to grow for 10 turns; I thought it a good trade off, considering the investment in shields is so great. How many times do you miss a Wonder by 1 Turn?

 

[Salarakas]

A Worker.

Is the tile roaded? It's hard to tell from your graphics. If not, it's better to use one worker to road it first in order minimize the amount of wasted worker turns.

Yeah, it shaved off 1 turn, and wasn't due to grow for 10 turns; I thought it a good trade off, considering the investment in shields is so great. How many times do you miss a Wonder by 1 Turn?

Good call. I suppose we could have shaved a turn or two by merging a worker there earlier but considering how few we had it would have hurt us too much.

 

[Aabraxan]

Nice turnset, Buce.

I agree that the Dutch should be the first target. If we take that city SW of Moscow first and our NE landmass, we can own this part of the continent. Then we can worry about moving in on the rest of Dutch territory.

Also, I like Sal's idea on timing. We can do a lot of damage with 4-5 ACs, and the earlier we begin using them, the longer their advantage lasts. (Obviously, we don't want to begin using them so early that we waste them by letting them die).

Once SP gets the SoZ built, I agree that a rax should be next. Maybe even chop the forest next to it? (Don't know if this is a good idea or not).

Two questions:
1) Do our war plans call for cats? If so, is there a good spot to begin producing cats?
2) Is anyone else working on the SoZ that we know of? (can't look at the save from work . . . )

 

[Bucephalus]

Is the tile roaded? It's hard to tell from your graphics. If not, it's better to use one worker to road it first in order minimize the amount of wasted worker turns.

I agree, under most circumstances; however, Moscow's demands on shields was robbing both Iron Town, and Yakutsk of a mined BG. I figured that one lost worker turn was worth it to improve such a premium tile, three turns earlier.

 

[Aabraxan]

Oh, and I meant to ask a totally non-strategy-related question: What graphics are you using, Bucephalus?

 

[Bucephalus]

Oh, and I meant to ask a totally non-strategy-related question: What graphics are you using, Bucephalus?

It's a complete mix and match; I've taken the bits I like from numerous sources, and I've no idea which bits come from where anymore.
If you like it, I can email the file to you.

 

[Salarakas]

Here's the irrigation line I talked about earlier. Start 1S of St Petes and then work your way towards the plains area near Yaroslavl. We should start it fairly soon or the northern towns won't be able to grow. I assume we want to irrigate the wheat next to Rostov too although it's not a top priority at the moment.

And be sure to spend the 10 shields we get from chopping the trees wisely. Calculate how many turns it takes to chop them (was it 3 or 4?) and then choose the build accordingly. We don't want to complete the chop when there's already 9 shields invested in a warrior. A second curragh (15 shields) would be nice and catapults (20 shields) are always useful. Don't build any improvements in the northern towns yet.

 

[Salarakas]

Once SP gets the SoZ built, I agree that a rax should be next. Maybe even chop the forest next to it? (Don't know if this is a good idea or not).

I think that's a good idea. I don't think we can finish the barracks before getting our first AC otherwise.

EDIT: Hmm. A barracks is 40 shields and St. Petes makes 7 uncorrupted shields a turn. That means that with a chop it would complete the barracks the same IT as we'd get our first AC. I'm not sure if the AC would be veteran in that case.. can anyone confirm?

Do our war plans call for cats? If so, is there a good spot to begin producing cats?

Fighting wars without catapults is just begging for unit losses. However, building them slows us down and we shouldn't tarry too long here. Also having just one or two catapults won't help much, you need more than that to really make a difference.

As for where to build them - any town that does NOT have a barracks. Towns that do have them should concentrate on swords and spearmen (I suppose we want at least a couple of those too?). Generally speaking your core towns should be building troops and the needed improvements while the corrupted towns should make nothing but artillery (in the beginning of the game when they are not that expensive) and workers/settlers.

Looking at the map I think we could build at least 4 cats before going to war if we chop the forests in the northern plains area. The eastern pink dot has 3 forests next to it while the western one and Yaroslavl have 1 each.

 

[Phaedo]

Sorry I have been AWOL. I haven't had a chance to look at things closely (RL stuff) but I think I will get a cahnce to in a few hours. It's so nice to see some activity again. I'll probably play my sets tomorrow (about 18hours) but I'll posts my input tonight and try to put up some goals for discussion.

Thanks for coming in Buce it made a big difference

Back in a bit

 

[Phaedo]

Hmm. A barracks is 40 shields and St. Petes makes 7 uncorrupted shields a turn. That means that with a chop it would complete the barracks the same IT as we'd get our first AC. I'm not sure if the AC would be veteran in that case.. can anyone confirm?

Wish I could confirm but have no idea

Truely nice work Buce! All seems well in hand.

I don't think cats are necessary for our first attack attack against the Dutch but we will want them (and lots of them) eventually. Rostov seems like a good place for that as it is high food/ low shield city but a steady output of cats could be helpful over the course of numerous turns.

Having said that. grabbing those 2 Dutch cities (Rotterdam and xxxxxcht) seem like nice short term goals. Owning all the grapes on the continent would give us monster bargaining power.

As much as I would like to get to Communism (to be discussed later, and purely a personal whim) CoL sems best without much doubt. An earlyish Rep would be helpful as we have all the resources we need and some cities that have good production potential.

I know this is a bit in bad form and I appologize, but why does St Pete's have 3 units in it and Vlad have none? Couldn't we have piggy-backed one unit down? (Not criticism, just a question ). [As the turn log was from memory, I can easly see how it could happen. However if the method to the madness was intentional, I'd love to know the reasoning ]

On to the more practical:
What are our thoughts on the next moves? Is another settler build necessary? I'd like to try to pump out workers out of Moscow without losing pop (and minimizing waste). If we want more cities, where? I don't see myself going against the Dutch in my turn set but what are the priorities for prepartion? Personally, I would emphasize horses with some swords. Say: 3:1? I like Sal's irrigation map but after St Pete's wheat is irrigated, do we want that worker to continue north (Ihe asks with al due respect ). I don't thing research will change much over the next 10 tuirns so it shouldn't be an option

 

[Bucephalus]

I know this is a bit in bad form and I appologize, but why does St Pete's have 3 units in it and Vlad have none? Couldn't we have piggy-backed one unit down? (Not criticism, just a question ). [As the turn log was from memory, I can easly see how it could happen. However if the method to the madness was intentional, I'd love to know the reasoning

I'm not sure why you would think it bad form to ask questions of anothers moves, particularly in a training game; I would say that it is an essential part of the learning process for all concerned.

I had to make sure St Pete's was adequately protected, at one time there were three Horse Barbs at the gates; losing all those shields was unthinkable, and although I had upgraded a Sword, it was three moves away.

 

[Salarakas]

Personally, I would emphasize horses with some swords. Say: 3:1?

What do you mean by horses? We don't have any horses in our territory unless I'm somehow mistaken. If you mean the ancient cavalry unit we can only get one every 5 turns and there's no way to speed it up. The only useful units we can build are swords, catapults and spearmen.

If we still have some spare cash we might want to upgrade that veteran warrior at some point.

grabbing those 2 Dutch cities (Rotterdam and xxxxxcht) seem like nice short term goals.

We first need to take out the city next to Moscow and after that just work our way towards their core. We shouldn't stop the war for any reason until we have taken out the town that has both iron and horses next to it. We don't necesserily have to finish them off, just hurt them so much that they'll never recover.

after St Pete's wheat is irrigated, do we want that worker to continue north

Yes definately. Chop the forest 1NW of the wheat and irrigate the tile after the wheat is irrigated. Then again, it won't come to that in the next 10 turns unless you use multiple workers so don't worry about it too much. Just start the irrigation line and I'll continue it during my set.

 

[TimBentley]

EDIT: Hmm. A barracks is 40 shields and St. Petes makes 7 uncorrupted shields a turn. That means that with a chop it would complete the barracks the same IT as we'd get our first AC. I'm not sure if the AC would be veteran in that case.. can anyone confirm?

lurker's comment: The AC would be regular. In particular, the free units come between the gold and happiness parts of the interturn.

 

[Salarakas]

Thanks Tim, you learn something new every day. Come to think of it if we chopped the forest the town wouldn't be making 7 uncorrupted shields anymore so I guess we should leave the forest standing for the time being.

 

[Phaedo]

What do you mean by horses? We don't have any horses in our territory unless I'm somehow mistaken.

Nope, not mistaken. My mistake . I'm in 3 SG games right now where I'm the Russians and I got confused

We first need to take out the city next to Moscow and after that just work our way towards their core. We shouldn't stop the war for any reason until we have taken out the town that has both iron and horses next to it. We don't necesserily have to finish them off, just hurt them so much that they'll never recover.

The city next to Moscow was what I means by xxxxxcht. I could only see the last three letters of the name. That's got to be first priority right?

 

[Aabraxan]

In response to Phaedo's question re: settlers. Looking at Sal's dotmap with the irrigation route, it looks like the two pink dots are intended to be city locations. I really don't think we should (voluntarily) go to war before the SoZ is built, and preferably not before we've got 4-5 ACs out. That's 7 turns to build the SoZ and another 20 turns before we've got 4 ACs. I think I see one settler on the map, so that's just one more (who's only 5 turns away), before the northern greenery is filled. I'm not convinced there's any point in settling the desert yet. It won't grow worth a flip and we don't have enough units to worry about unit support yet. I am not convinced that we'll be able to delay wars until we get all the ACs we want, but if we can, we can let Moscow pump out two more settlers for the remaining land and then begin building military units. In the meantime our other cities can push out military units, as appropriate.

When that time does come, I think "xxxxxcht" (Dutch city SW of Moscow) is the priority target.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

I hereby announce that RL problems and the lingering cold are over.

 

[Salarakas]

The city next to Moscow was what I means by xxxxxcht. I could only see the last three letters of the name. That's got to be first priority right?

Yes. In fact I think we could easily take it out with a force like 3 AC and 3 swords. We should have no problems holding our own in the eastern parts if we "fortify" it with a few swords with some catapult and spearman support. We just need to make sure we don't lose the towns there and can then push on when our attack force arrives from Utrecht or whatever it is.

As for the pink dots... we definately want towns on both. The eastern one can build catapults fast with the forest chops and the other secures the north and prevents barbarians from appearing there. Otherwise we need to keep a unit there and before long some AI civ will send a settler there by boat. And remember, irrigated plains is just as good as a mined grassland before railroads come into play. Actually, it might be considered better as irrigating is faster than mining. The desert can be ignored as the town has plenty of other tiles to work on.

 

[Phaedo]

Welcome back D'art. It looks like I'm not going to get a chance to play this weekend so why don't you take the next set

 

[Salarakas]

If you can't play in the next couple of days D'Art please let us know. I could play either today or tomorrow.