Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[Salarakas]

Buce: that was one of the possibilities I was thinking about. Another possibility is to capture Amsterdam, stop research completely once we get knights, clear the continent and hope no one from the other continent can get to our continent before they have caravels/galleons/frigates. This would mean that we would have to stop looking for them ourselves (i.e. disband the curragh).

One problem is that this is only emperor and the AI doesn't research THAT fast. We will soon have a LOT of land and can start to do some serious research ourselves too if we want to. Your suggestion would be better in this sense as we could research to cossacks ourselves and then capture Amsterdam as the last enemy town on our continent and start invading the other continent with our UU (and golden age!), like you said.

I'm not sure how many techs we could get from it though unless we wait a very long time. But I'm all for it unless Phaedo feels against it.

 

[Bucephalus]

Bucephalus, thanks for being willing to fill in. I'd like to hear your reasoning on leaving the Dutch as a 1CC, though. I don't see any advantage to not capturing the GL right away.

Okay, if we capture the GL now, we will learn techs at the rate that the Celts, Hittites, Arabs do; until Education, then it becomes obsolete. If the AI civs research straight to Education, then in a worse case scenario, we might only get 4 techs.

If we leave Amsterdam as a 1CC, we could research the bottom of the tech tree as far as Chemistry; we would have the knowledge of where the Salt is.
Meanwhile the AI civs will eventually research to, and beyond Education; the further that we allow them to get beyond Education before capturing Amsterdam, the more techs we get. I've used this tactic to catapult myself as far as the Ind. Age before now.
All the more reason to try and get those contacts with the unmet civs.

 

[Salarakas]

Aab: the strategy here is that the great library stops working when you discover education. If, however, you wait long enough and don't discover education yourself you'll get EVERY tech that is known by at least 2 AI civs that you know, regardless of how advanced that tech is. In some succession games they've got well over a dozen techs just by capturing the great library.

E.g. in GR13 they got the following techs: "Republic, Theology, Printing Press, Education, Banking, Astronomy, Democracy, Physics, ToG, Magnetism, Military Tradition, Steam Power, Medicine, and Communism."

 

[Bucephalus]

Cross post, Sal.

One thing, we can't research to Cossacks, because the two halves of the tech tree converge before Chemistry.

Also, it's not like there is anything to lose; any time that we decide is right, we can take Amsterdam.

 

[Aabraxan]

Oooohhhhh . . . Now I'm following. Thanks.

My impulse is to take the GL then run 0% research until it becomes obsolete. Having never used the strategy you're talking about, though, I'll leave that decision to y'all.

By the way, there's also a save on this board somewhere, I think in General Discussions where somebody (Tone, maybe?) posted a Sid save that did something similar to what you described in GR 13. It was an awesome tech cascade.

 

[Salarakas]

One thing, we can't research to Cossacks, because the two halves of the tech tree converge before Chemistry.

We don't need education in order to research military tradition which gives us cossacks. I've done the same thing with cavalry many times and it's great fun We might even want to do it the hard way and not go for knights at all (meaning two less techs to research ourselves) since we have the AC unit. Yes, knights are better but we could win without them too.

 

[Bucephalus]

We don't need education in order to research military tradition which gives us cossacks. I've done the same thing with cavalry many times and it's great fun

You're right, another 'Senior' moment, I'm afraid

Adds weight to my suggestion, though.

 

[Phaedo]

I think you've misunderstood; I'm proposing to let them keep the GL until it suits us better to take it.

I understand. I'm not against that. The Dutch UU is tough but nothing a few Trebs couldn't overcome

 

[Salarakas]

By the way, there's also a save on this board somewhere, I think in General Discussions where somebody (Tone, maybe?) posted a Sid save that did something similar to what you described in GR 13. It was an awesome tech cascade.

That's probably from THIS game, one of the greatest SGs ever. Well worth reading if you haven't already.

Where did the Dutch settler pair get off to? A couple of slave workers would make a nice addition.

Judging by the screenshots it looks like the settler is under the spearman 1E1NE of Vladivostok.

Talking about settlers we might want to raze and replace all Dutch cities if we plan on leaving Amsterdam to them. We might also want to capture it, destroy the Dutch and then gift it to e.g. the Arabs. If we're going for razing cities we need a lot of settlers soon so Moscow might have to fall back to building them before long.

We also need the forbidden palace somewhere. Iron Town might be a good place for it.


Buce, what's the situation? Have you played already?

 

[Bucephalus]

Buce, what's the situation? Have you played already?

No, I had a power cut last night, but I'm free to play it this afternoon.

I had a chance to look at the save. Conveniently, Moscow grows in 1, and will give a Settler in 1 without loss of shields; that sorts out replacing Utrecht.

There are fewer units available to me than I would like, but the time is still right. My plan is to move units towards Utrecht on the IBT, then declare on turn 1; I intend to use Cats to minimize casualties, because the last thing I need is for bad RNG to rob me of units. Utrecht should fall on turn 2, then I shall relocate all offensive units to Yakutsk; by this time, such offensive units that the Dutch may have, will be in the open.

I intend to destroy their offensive capability before advancing in to Dutch territory, to avoid casualties; if I don't, there is a danger that our Swords will be cut down in the open.

Cry, "Havoc!", and let slip the Dogs of War.

 

[Salarakas]

Don't declare on turn 1 unless you feel we're ready. Waiting 5 or so turns would give us one extra AC and a sword or two. We also can't leave our northern towns defenceless as we need to be careful with landings.

Edit: and you might want to disband the scout or at least move it outside their borders or else we lose our reputation (if we care about that).

 

[Phaedo]

It certainly is your call. I didn't think I left enough units to declare on turn 1 but you learned all those nifty war skills with Zerkses so I'd love you to show me I was wrong

 

[Bucephalus]

Don't declare on turn 1 unless you feel we're ready. Waiting 5 or so turns would give us one extra AC and a sword or two. We also can't leave our northern towns defenceless as we need to be careful with landings.

Well, the Military Advisor says we're 'strong', and you know how conservative he is; so I think it's time. We don't have enough units for a 'blitzkreig' attack, which is why I'm going to allow them to advance their offensive units. Once they've gone, the next player should be able to walk up to their cities unopposed.

Edit: and you might want to disband the scout or at least move it outside their borders or else we lose our reputation (if we care about that).

Indeed. Fortunately there is neutral ground just 1 move away, so with luck it might still have a shot at pillaging the Iron; reputation is always important, IMO.

If anyone wants me to delay war for the next player, speak up.

 

[Salarakas]

If anyone wants me to delay war for the next player, speak up.

No need for that but you don't have to start the war right away either if you don't want to, nobody's forcing you to do that If the time is right like you said then go for it. But we do need to leave some units behind.. the last thing we need is for them to drop a sword or two next to one of our core cities defended only by a regular warrior

 

[Bucephalus]

No need for that but you don't have to start the war right away either if you don't want to, nobody's forcing you to do that If the time is right like you said then go for it. But we do need to leave some units behind.. the last thing we need is for them to drop a sword or two next to one of our core cities defended only by a regular warrior

If they still don't have MM, they won't be dropping anything.

 

[Bucephalus]

I'm six turns in, will play the remainder after I've got my daughter to bed.

I have razed and replaced Utrecht; I have captured Rotterdam; I expect to have 'The Hague' (and it's Horses) by the end of this turnset. No casualties.

 

[Phaedo]

Nice Work!

I'm looking forward to reading the log

 

[Bucephalus]

Pre-turn:

Wake Cats, both AC, and 2 Swords; another Sword is ready in Moscow.
Switch Moscows build to Settler (1)
mm to emphasise production.
Interupt Workers roading bananas; I want a road through the hills at Vladivostok, to set-up a 'kill-zone'.
Scout leaves Dutch territory.

Enter:

IBT:

Arabs, Celts building ToA;

530 BC:

Moscow completes Settler, begins Sword (3); Rostov completes Cat, commisions another (5)
Ask William for MM, which he refuses to give; DOW Dutch.
Move offensive units in to Dutch territory at Utrecht;
Workers from bananas to hill; Sword and Spear to provide cover.
Scout to Dutch Iron.

IBT: Dutch Warrior approaches Scout, but he's too late.

510 BC:

St Petes gives another AC.
Scout pillages Iron, moves away; with luck, I might just get their Horses too.
Begin suicide run with Curragh.
Cats redline the only defender in Utrecht, reg AC kills and destroys, capturing 1 Worker. (1-0)
AC to Vladivostok, ditto Swords.
Settler in position to replace Utrecht.

IBT:

Dutch units playing 'tag' with our Scout.

490 BC:

Found 'Krasnoyarsk, begins Cat; Slave begins to mine BG.
Iron Town completes Sword, begins another.
Units begin to arrive at Vladivostok.
Workers complete road in hills, move down to Grassland; a road here will allow an approach to Rotterdam in 1.

IBT:

The Dutch are putting all their energies in to chasing the Scout - it's currently is pursued by four units.

470 BC:

Moscow, St Pete's completes Sword; begin more.
Workers complete road to Rotterdam.
All units back in Vladivostok.
No sign of any Dutch counter-offensive, so I will advance next turn.

IBT:

Still chasing the Scout......

450 BC:

Yakutsk completes Cat, begins another.
Yekaterinburg completes Sword, begins another.
All available units approach Rotterdam.

IBT: Finally, our Scout is cornered...

430 BC:

Take Rotterdam, no casualties (3-0); I've decided to hold Rotterdam for the time being, at least. It's only size 1, so the flip risk should be minimal; also there is a Hittite Settler in the vicinity.

IBT:

At last, some Dutch soldiers poke their heads above the parapet; I will have to fight to keep Rotterdam (flip risk - zero)

410 BC:

Workers complete road in to Rotterdam - excellent, now I can move and use the Cats in the same turn.
Take-out 7 Dutch units (4 Swords 2 Archers, and a Warrior); lose a Sword. (10-1)
New AC produced.

IBT:

Nada.

390 BC:

St. Pete's/ Iron Town complete Swords;
Begin the advance on The Hague.

IBT: Nada.

370 BC:

Now adjacent to The Hague; 3 Dutch Warriors approach.

IBT:

350 BC:

Fighting outside Rotterdam. Kill three Warriors. (13-1)
Take The Hague, killing 3 Spears and an Archer (17-1); We now have Dutch Horses and a second source of Iron.


End Notes:

The Dutch will give us MM and all their gold for Peace; I suggest we take it, and turn our immediate attention to the Hittites. We have 14 Swords, a dozen Cats, and 4 AC's; They have Silks, Gems, and the Pyramids.

The Dutch will never be a threat, and we can appropriate the GL anytime that suits us; and taking MM now will put us in the Middle Ages, with a 33% chance of Feudalism, and MI.
The extra lux's that we will take from the Hittites will enable us to switch to Republic (due in 1 turn) much earlier than would otherwise be likely, given the size of our Military.

Note to the next player: on my last turn I mis-clicked and put a Sword in Hittite territory; they may want words.

For some reason, I'm having a problem with 'Paint'; could someone oblige with a screenie?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Phaedo01_350BC.SAV

 

[Salarakas]

Nice job

I can't take a look at the save today so I'll save the comments for tomorrow. I like the idea of hitting the Hittites soon though. This is the perfect time to strike now that we have the upper hand with AC. There's probably a lot of land to settle but capturing/razing some core cities hurts the AI way more than founding some 90% corrupt remote cities would help us.

Who's up now, moi?

Edit: What do you think of the idea of capturing Amsterdam before signing peace and then gifting it to the Arabs? They (the Arabs) are the last AI on our continent that we'll attack and capturing the Dutch capital would a) further decrease the flip risk and b) permanently sign the Dutch death warrant. They will never recover from that even if they could settle the whole eastern peninsula by themselves.

 

[Bucephalus]

Nice job

I can't take a look at the save today so I'll save the comments for tomorrow. I like the idea of hitting the Hittites soon though. This is the perfect time to strike now that we have the upper hand with AC. There's probably a lot of land to settle but capturing/razing some core cities hurts the AI way more than founding some 90% corrupt remote cities would help us.

Who's up now, moi?

Thanks.

Moscow is mm to grow 7-9 every six turns; it's making ten shields, so it gives us Sword/ Settler/ Sword / Settler...ad infinitum.
So, a Settler every six turns will fill the gaps pretty much as they appear.