Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[Salarakas]

I'm not sure why you want to go 0%. Yes, Russia is expansionist and scouts are nice but you only get 3 or so techs with them if you get lucky, 1 or bubkis if not.

The only thing 0% will do is get you some cash early on. However, that cash will you do you little good as it will most certainly be demanded by the civs you meet. You will of course give into their demands as an unprepared war early on is the last thing you want.

In other words - running 0% will only help your rivals. It won't do you one bit of good.

Or am I missing something here?

 

[Aabraxan]

As I said, I'd never tried 0% science. I played my first 10 turns with 0% science and I have to say, I don't like it.

 

[Phaedo]

I have only had some limited 0 science experience. From what I've seen, it has some value. If you can meet enough civs there is usually a trading opportunity which can even you up in the early game if you are lucky. It also allows a strong military and deficit running. Conceivably, the stronger your military, the less the AI will come at you with demands (or for less). Personally, I've never truely done the 0 science. I always kept it at 10% so you get the tech in 50 turns. There is a chance you can get something before your neighbour and trade up to par again.

There is the luddite SG game that is going 0 research of any kind and no GL.

 

[Aabraxan]

I have basically run my early science game in one of two ways:

1) Max science -- in this one, I figure out the shortest time in which I can research a tech, then move the science slider down far enough to hit that target while spending as little as possible.
2) Minimum -- usually, 20% is the lowest figure that I can find that will generate any appreciable science (iow, something other than "(Alphabet -- turns))." That gets the first tech in 50 turns with minimum spending.

It just depends on what sort of game I'm playing. There may be some value to running 0% science later in the game, but I fail to see any value in it as an opening gambit.

 

[scoutsout]

Lots of good discussion here... this has the makings of a good game. Good luck, team!

 

[Phaedo]

The science slider all hinges on your citizens working gold. I'm not sure but even at the "alphabet in -- turns" stage, some science builds if you have any % allocated to it. When your slider is at 100% at the beginning it tells you the same number of turns as if it is on 80% but that actually isn't the case. I haven't fully tested this theory so it may all be bolllocks

In a big way Sal is right though. Can the exta gold you get from running 0% from the beginning really equal the science boost?

I also want to through out an idea about research. Is Alphabet really waht we want to study first? Math is a second tier tech and we have a good shot at getting it before many. It would put in a stronger trading position than researching Alphabet regardless how much we may want the GL.

 

[Aabraxan]

I usually start with Alphabet because that's the route to Republic. I want my anarchy over asap. The smaller my empire when I face anarchy, the less I lose during it. I've never built the GL.

Even at a "(-- turns)" setting, there may be some gold being allocated to science. I have no idea how much. However, what I thought everyone was discussing was a 0% science gambit. I'm guessing that this allocates nothing to science and you don't make any progress.

I haven't discovered any techs, so I think I can make some comments without spoiling anyone else's first ten turns.

Alphabet puts us on the path to Republic. Even if we fail at the slingshot, the earlier we move into Republic, the better, I say. Despo provides some unit support and MP, but we can overcome that with more cities and careful use of the lux slider. Also, I've usually found that the AI will pay handsomely for writing. We can trade Writing for many things if we have a monopoly.

On the other hand, The Wheel and Bronze/Iron Working will reveal horses and iron, respectively. Knowing this earlier will help us plan where to send settlers. I'm aware that the AI is likely to research these. Monopoly techs are great because of their trade value, but we don't know for sure that we'll be able to trade them for anything worthwhile.

Finally, I have no idea how much the AI values Math. I'm all for going this route if: (1) we stand a good shot at a monopoly on Math; and (2) the AI will trade us some good stuff for it.

Science-wise, my first ten turns are blown. However, I have to recommend we not go with 0% science. If we want to go minimum science, I'm fine with that.

 

[Phaedo]

It seems we are the only one having the conversation. i'm sure the others will join in eventually. All the things you say about 0% science makes sense to me. As I said I've never really done it. Is it just a variant or are there serious advantages to it? I remember reading Bede once saying that anything in between 0% and 100% was a waste. I still don't fully understand it.

If true 0% science can be a winning strategy, maybe we should try it. It would all be new to me. I am more comfortable with mimimal science myself.

As for governments, I'd like to get to communism eventually. Is republic what we want as warmongers?

 

[Aabraxan]

The Grumpy Old Monk is wise, but was he talking about doing 0% from the beginning? I recall someone (vmxa, I think) talking about dialing it down to 0% after knights could be built, but that's a different scenario.

In my games, I've rarely been able to sustain 100% very long. I usually end up running 20%-30% on the lux slider, and 60-70% science. The rest goes to unit support.

Is republic what we want as warmongers? Thus far, I've done all of my warmongering in republic. Even with no unit support, I have been able to run 60+ units over my support limit and still (a) make a profit in gpt; and (b) outresearch the AI. Unfortunately, none of that has been at Emperor . . . There's a thread called "What gov't do you choose?" in the general discussion forum right now about different governments. One of the things that has come out is that, for communism to really be effective, you really have to plan from the beginning to have it, and it's a really late tech. You can build a very effective in republic, but it requires different characteristics than an effective communist empire. I think it has a lot to do with city placement, but I'll comb back through the thread and see. I recall some people saying that the problem is that you almost have to remodel your whole empire to go from Republic to Communism effectively.

I'm pretty happy with Republic, but if we really want to go for Communism, what about shooting for Monarchy, then on to Communism? Granted, that begins to sound a lot like AW, but Republic isn't set in stone for me.

 

[Twixmeistah]

First off, I'm afraid that the Republic Slingshot will be out of the question, since we simply don't start with Alphabet. The road will simply be too long to get Filosophy first. But it is true that republic is way better dan despotism anyway, even if we didn't get it for free. But it would take long to aquire it, and it isn't that good for our unit support (which is highly important for our military campaigns)

The plan was to warmonger our way to victory. Monarchy is better suitable for this, so it might be good to switch our attention towards that option. The required techs for Monarcy are researched rather late by the AI, so they will be reasonably good trading tools too.

And about the 0% Sci. I think it isn't that effective in the beginning. The little cash we get doesn't compare at all to the downsides of having no research. Besides, we aren't experienced in this area, and it would be very unwise too experiment in this game.

I think it's important to have a monopoly on a tech. The main option for a monopoly is of course Math. We are only one step away from it, and the other civs must first research Masonry. My vote goes to the amount of research that will let us almost certainly be the first to acquire Math. I don't know how soon the AI will research it, but would 40% research be enough to be the first ones there? We should estimate the turns in which we will be needing Math carefully.

P.S. Our scout should move East, gaining techs from settlements is now more important than exploring the coastline for future city sites.

 

[scoutsout]

My $0.02:

The Republic Slingshot is possible at emperor, even if you start without Alphabet. It's not easy, but possible.

As for governments... Republic is durable enough for all but the most serious warmongering. Most Monarchies will lag badly as the Middle Ages mature...

Republic to Communism is viable... and you are left with the option of remaining in Republic if you choose to.

 

[Aabraxan]

I think we can warmonger our way to victory in Republic. While Monarchy provides unit support, we can make more gold in Republic. I think republic is worth it even if it's not free.

I also think that the 0% gambit is a losing proposition. I said that minimum research was fine by me, but upon further reflection, I vote max research towards Republic. (IOW, minimum spending for the shortest possible turns on Alpha to begin with.)

 

[Salarakas]

I agree with scoutsout and Aabraxan, monarchy is only really required when playing an always war game. Here the plan is to play aggressive and make lots of war but that doesn't mean you have to be at war all the time. War weariness can be dealt with by minimizing troop losses and then signing peace when it gets too bad.

I would start with alphabet (max science) and decide later whether the philosophy slingshot towards republic is possible or not. The decision whether to go for the great library or not can also wait for quite a few turnsets.

Communism is the ultimate warmongering government. However, you have to plan for it and it needs a totally different strategy to republic. In republic you want to irrigate the totally corrupt areas and use the extra population as scientists. In communism you need to change all the irrigation back to mines for shields as suddenly all your worthless towns can pump out troops just as fast as your core towns. You also need at least courthouses everywhere to push the corruption level down. And... the second anarchy really hurts unless you're a religious civ. But again, the decision can wait for a long time.

 

[Phaedo]

Well then, I suppose we should all take our 10 turns and see where we end up. The save is on the last page but here it is again. If we are going for the Phil slingshot, it would be wise to max that gold. Given all the past discussion, I don't see a problem with Abra taking his turns again.
Good luck all

 

[Phaedo]

Sorry, can't (or don't know how) to post the save again. It's on p.4

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment: If you decide to go with research, don't forget to temporarily switch to something that you don't want before you pop a GH; you cannot get what you are currently researching.

 

[Salarakas]

Umm... looking at the victory status screen it appears as if the wonder victory condition is on.

 

[Phaedo]

Oh Christ! I checked, and you are right. I did say patience was required but perhaps this is asking too much

As Scout said, there is some interesting discussion in this team and I would like to continue it. What should we do? After all the discussion, we seemed to have changed some of our early decesions but have a good agreement about starting strategy.
We would have to roll new starts but that wouldn't be the end of the world. D'art seems to have lost a bit of interest as he has been posting in other threads but not this one.

Sal seems to be the "old hand" in the group. Care to try taking on trainer status? I, or someone else, can roll new starts. Russia is still good with a warmongering attitude and we have already decided on pursuing heavy science in the early rounds (I still like the fact that there are some differences in what we should research).

Abara played his turns (and I played a couple too after reading Sal's post) so a new start would put us back at the same decesion-making position again.

Is anyone interested in continuing with new rolls?

 

[Aabraxan]

Thanks, Bucephalus . . . That's why I love having lurkers around.

If no one has any objections, I will go ahead and play my turns again.

As I was writing this, Phaedo posted again, so let me go ahead and address his post: I can go either way on the new start issue. I'm in if we have new starts; I'm in with the old one.

D'Arganan59 -- you still with us?

Do we have a research plan yet? Here's what I see from the posts:

Aabraxan: Max on Alpha
Salarakas: Max on Alpha
Phaedo: Math (minimum or maximum?)
Twixmeistah: Math (~40%?)
D'artagnan59: ???
Allanc: ??


1st Edit: Added Allanc (oops), and Phaedo's vote.

 

[Phaedo]

I guess I'd go with Math. I'm betting we can pick up aplah (and maybe lit) if we get math and meet civs in the right order. I'm really out on a limb on this one so it's more experimental than solid strategy. I'm thinking alpha will win out but there's a gambler's chance that math can beat it. For comparison's sake I'd like to try it.

There is still Al to think about too. He takes time to post but usually weighs in within a week on the issues being discussed. No one signed up for a rushed game