Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[Salarakas]

The game won't last long so I don't see any point in building great wonders anymore. Both the Pentagon and the Military Academy would help us win the game faster. We might not even be able to finish building any armies in the Military Academy town before winning if we go that way so that's not why we would want it. Cossacks are fantastic for leader fishing as they can attack up to 3 times a turn and the AI civs on the other continent are bound to have loads of outdated units which will be perfect targets. We'll get many leaders clearing out the other continent unless we get unlucky or play it wrong. The thing why we'd want the MA is that it makes our armies stronger. Then again, the Pentagon allows us to add 4th cossacks into our armies so they'd be stronger that way too.

Have we given up on giving away the GLib and then reclaiming?

Yes. The civs on the other continent are behind us in tech so there's no point in waiting for them to slowly research techs that we could research ourselves much faster.

We may not need cossack armies, but they'd be an awful lot of fun.

We have cossacks and empty armies.

 

[Phaedo]

I'm finally back. Thunderfall very kindly looked into my situation and seemed to have fixed the problem. I just had time to read the last few posts as I'm off to work but I haven't had time to give them much thought to comment. I will later. At first blush though, the time it takes to build armies (rather than the advantage of 4 units) tends to make me lean in favour of te pentagon. The Other continent looks like one big land mass. It just means the armies shouldn't get full loaded until they arrive. That is a very snap decesion though so I'll think more on it today at work.

Nice work Mr_2

 

[mr_2_you]

we have three empty armies now, i would lean toward the improvement that lets us add a 4th unit to an army.

 

[Aabraxan]

Now that I have finally downloaded the save, maybe I can take a look and quit pulling ideas out of my . . .

OK . . . maybe one more comment on the whole Pentagon/MA issue before I actually look at the save: It just seems like we're debating: (a) stronger armies; vs. (b) more stronger armies. Seems to me like the latter is almost always preferable.

One item that I do not know, though: How do armies count in terms of unit support? Are they one unit or 4 (or 5 w/ the Pentagon)?

I'm sure I'll have more after I've looked at the save.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Later . . .

Edited: I removed incorrect information and a jpeg from the wrong save which was cluttering up this page.

And who's our next victim? It looks like we could turn Denver into a staging area . . .

 

[Salarakas]

The Military Academy increases the strenght of your armies which is a little hard to see on paper. There's a formula for calculating the actual army strenght and although I've seen it used a couple of times I've never got around to using it myself. It's been bugging me for a while so I finally dug it out from THIS thread in which Theoden says the following:

The attack and defense of the army is a tricky part. The formula for this is:

Attack = A+(TA/N)

A – the attack of the unit currrently doing the fighting

TA – the attacks of all the units added together

N – 4 if you own the military academy, else just 6

This formula is rounding fractions down.

Using this formula I calculated the actual strenght for a cossack army with all the possibilities.

No Pentagon or MA: 6+(18/6) = 9
12hp with 3 veteran cossacks

Just the Pentagon: 6+(24/6) = 10
16hp with 4 veteran cossacks

Just the Military Academy: 6+(18/4) = 10
12hp with 3 veteran cossacks

Both: 6+(24/4) = 12
16hp with 4 veteran cossacks


So basically the Pentagon was the better choice as the MA would not have made it any stronger than the Pentagon did (as 18/4 is rounded down to 4).


Here are some calculations for other units as well:

Swords - attack strenght of 3
3+(9/6)=4
3+(12/6)=5
3+(9/4)=5
3+(12/4)=6

Medieval Infantry and Knights - attack strenght of 4
4+(12/6)=6
4+(16/6)=6
4+(12/4)=7
4+(16/4)=8

Sipahi - attack strenght of 8
8+(24/6)=12
8+(32/6)=13
8+(24/4)=14
8+(32/4)=16

Tanks - attack strenght of 16
16+(48/6)=24
16+(64/6)=26
16+(48/4)=28
16+(64/4)=32

 

[Salarakas]

One item that I do not know, though: How do armies count in terms of unit support? Are they one unit or 4 (or 5 w/ the Pentagon)?

The army itself is one unit and all the units inside it are as normal. 5 with the Pentagon.

OK. I've looked at the save and it appears that the whole Pentagon/MA debate is moot because Mr_2_You did finish the Pentagon!

Umm. No You took a look at the wrong save. I just had a look and there's 1 turn left.

It looks like we could turn Denver into a staging area . . .

Caravels have 4 movement points and sink in ocean so unless we there's an island or something west of our continent we can't safely cross the pond that way. So, the Denver Island seems like our best/only choice. The Great Library town could make for a nice staging area. Switch it to a harbor and rush it if necessery. Then, upgrade all our galleys there and off we go.

 

[Phaedo]

Oh it's good to be able to sit down on my bamboo floor and hit my bookmark fro CFF and have it just beautifully appear (I still have to log in and sometimes have to do it when switching pages but I have NO COMPLAINTS)

Thanks Sal for that breakdown, it is great
I'm glad my gut instinct was right. At the end of the day, it is an issue of situaton right? We have basically won this game and are trying to effect that win as quickly as possible to both leard/improve general warfare and end game. If we expected to be in a long drawn out war with a single empire with future wars on the horizon, the MA might be the chioce becuse it would allow us to produce new armies. However, with our cossacks we have ample opportunities to produce armies. As Sals post shows, the 5agon gives us more better armies faster and those faster armies can be improved with the MA with less turns if a city becomes more productive.

Sal's absolutely right that Denver is our only first option. We need to get a shuffle sustem up and going ASAP. From Denver, we can hit the main continent safely so at some point we ought to have at least one settler and some workers ready. We need a city to load those units into an army. I think it is best to do it on the bit gontinent though. We can plant a city and all our armies with the necessary units to fill them in a turn if we have the boats. It is a logistical war now.

So D'art hasn't offered anything other than a request to take a turn so I would say it's Buce's turn.

OT: I know it is old history but I felt I should expand my replay decesion a bit (for my own sake if no-one elses). The TDG nature of the game basically means mistakes are ok, we are going to make them and discuss them and hopefully learn form them. I hope that includes mistakes of protocol as well. It is of course best to consult before making a mistake but once made, every mistake becomes a learning opportunity for something. I didn't have strong feelings about replaying however the discussion had come up before between a friend and I and I found myself agruing the side of not re-loading. There is nothing inherently wrong with it and I offered earlier in the game to re-load after I replayed the settler pump. However, over the course of this game and the Cbob game, I have decided that it is the decesion-by-decesion factor that make these SG games so engaging and also a truer test of ability. If that part is taken away, it becomes a "who's got the biggest" contest. I made the decesion as a choice about what I want these SG games to be. I really appreciate that the issue came up and I applaud Mr_2 on the way he delt with the issue too.

On the happy side, learning that great tip from Sal alone should have been worth it and it became a great example of how those riots actually hurt. The difference over 3 turns ended up being a turn on the Pentagon. It is an example of productivity. If the turn log is the order that the riots happened then Sal's trick could have saved the turn on the Pentgon.

 

[mr_2_you]

So, the Denver Island seems like our best/only choice. The Great Library town could make for a nice staging area. Switch it to a harbor and rush it if necessery. Then, upgrade all our galleys there and off we go.

i'm not sure we need to rush it just yet. we've only got 3-5 cossacks, we're not taking over anything with only those units. other than that, i think sal's suggestion is wise.

 

[Bucephalus]

Can someone else take it?

D'art's legendary reliability has left me in the same position in D'art01.

 

[Aabraxan]

I looked at the wrong save?!?

I thought for sure that I got the right one. I'll go back and double-check it, as well as remove the huge jpeg cluttering up this page. My apologies for any confusion I may have caused.

Anyway, it looks like the Pentagon was the better choice, after all. I still like the idea of being able to build armies, but I'm not about to argue with Sal's numbers. They are very enlightening for me. Thank you, sir, a lesson I'll keep in mind.

Maybe I wasn't clear about Denver, but I agree on the Denver issue. My feeling was that we could stage off of our continent out of Great Library, capture Denver, and then use Denver Island (maybe we should call it Bob Denver Island?) as a staging area to invade the other continent. To that end, I'd say switch Great Library to a harbor. As Mr_2 suggested, I'd also say wait some time before deciding whether we need to rush it. Looks like most of our galleys are a long way off, anyway, so the only point in rushing the harbor would be if we were going to build galleys at GL, but I don't see that happening. If we're going to upgrade at GL, we won't need the harbor until the galleys are there.

 

[mr_2_you]

Can someone else take it?

phaedo?
aabraxan?

 

[Aabraxan]

I saw Buce's post, and I can grab it in a day or two if no one else does. I want to give Phaedo and Sal a shot at it, though. It seems like I just played and I don't want to be greedy.

 

[Phaedo]

I got it.

this is the curret roster as it stands
Current Roster:

mr_2_u (just played)
D'art (not sure what he's doing)
Bucephalus (skipping)
Phaedo(up)
Sal(on deck)
Aabra (warming up)

More Later

 

[Phaedo]

I think your plan is good Aabra but I think Anjar is a better choice for our disembarking point as it has far greater production capacity and has a larger pop. I also think we should build a city on that island (as I understand it, if we load a unit onto a ship in a city it doesn't lose a movement and can get on and off on the same turn). I suppose that should happen after we take Denver though.

I think we will have to rush the harbour as it would take 53 turns if we switched now and let the city build it without help. We should also get as many of our galleys back ther as possible.

We have 4 cosacks at the moment. That is probably enough to take Denver now if we could get them over there. It also looks like our deal with the Arabs is out so we can innitiate our GA whenever we like.

We will get Ed in 2 and Nav is mybey 10 or 12? That would mean Sal will get to do a little rampaging .

So it looks like my job will be to set up for the initial invasion force and try to get our empire up to peak productivity (I don't know if I'm up to that task but I'll give it a shot). I think it makes sense for Sal to trigger the GA just as he is ready to invade. Although killing the Arabs early ought to make Nav a bit cheaper for us so maybe I should trigger it. I'm not sure which would get us accross the water faster.

I should get a chance to play tonight. Any other thoughts? Anything you want to make sure are in place when your turn starts Sal?

 

[Aabraxan]

OK, now that I have the correct save . . .

I think your plan is good Aabra but I think Anjar is a better choice for our disembarking point as it has far greater production capacity and has a larger pop.

True. I fiddled with MMing them and I can get 2 uncorrupted shields out of either of them as they currently stand. And Anjar is closer to the spot where I'd found a beachhead city.

I also think we should build a city on that island (as I understand it, if we load a unit onto a ship in a city it doesn't lose a movement and can get on and off on the same turn). I suppose that should happen after we take Denver though.

I believe you're correct about loading and movement. I had initially thought to just take Denver for the staging area, but I think we probably need a city on the west side of the island where we can load troops while we prep to storm Denver. [Never mind: silly overcomplicated plan was inserted here.]

I think we will have to rush the harbour as it would take 53 turns if we switched now and let the city build it without help. We should also get as many of our galleys back ther as possible.

We may eventually decide to rush it, but we can save ourselves some gold by waiting and rushing later. Great Library can have a harbor in 21 and Anjar can have it in 27 if you take a mined tile from GL. So I say wait to rush it until we've got more galleys closer to whichever town we decide to build the harbor in.

Good luck!

 

[Phaedo]

I'm just at the end of turn 2 and we will get Nv in 5 turns! So this means I get to start the invasion and trigger the GA

I also thought I'd pause to say that I thik there is a Great Wonder that we could use: Leo's Workshop. We could afford to upgrade all those cats to cannons and have another city killing stack for the other continent. I'm not going to start it but I thought I'd mention it. I have this page running in the background so if people decide it's a good idea before the end of my set I'll start it. LW 600s Coss 90s

 

[Phaedo]

Preparation for War

Goals:
Get higher productivity out of Anjar
Build Harbour in Anjar
Manage empire
Build Cossacks
build a few defensive units
disband some units

Pre-turn 650 AD
Get the extra shield out of Anjar and start a harbour
Move the armies towards Anjar (they will get there in 9 turns)
Find how we are keeping our force.
Take a tour of the empire. Switched a clown to a scientist, changed some tiles to get more food out of those corrupt towns. Starded on costal fortresses for towns building galleys (a CF and caravells are both 40 shields). And I started some courthouses in towns that had about 1/2 corruption or less. I also started some harbours in low pop coastal towns. I think they are sound builds but I'm not overly confident

Hit Return

IBT not much, some shuffling over on the other continent

660 AD T1
We build the Pentagon Start on a cossack.
Kranoyarsk builds a barricks and switches to cossack (10 turns)
Set workers to work irrigating. I take the workers that are mining corrupt city squares off and get them watering where or roading where they cannot

IBT a barb galley attacks ours in the Roman sea and dies
Lugnum riots (It's pretty corrupt so I hire a couple of clowns. I'll look closer at the end of the turn). Arggg! ANOTHER city riots and I have to hire a clown. I'll also have to look more closely at my cities before the end of turn
Put the science slider up to 70% and we get Nav in 5! I guess I get to start the invasion

670AD T2
Explore a bit, keep watering and roading with the workers. Found a city (Vologa or something like that)
Keep sending units to Anjar
Move a stack of cats, a couple of cossacks a couple of elite swords and a bunch of fodder(ACs) next to the Arab border

IBT Zzzzz

680 AD T3
What can I say. It's all worker moves trying to get water to our corrupt towns
Found Omsk

IBT I let another city riot (I am truely an idiot )

690 AD T4
A lot of worker moves but everything is setting up nicely.
Do a city check and done

IBT Looks like the germans and Romans are fighting

700 AD T5
Worker moves and build 2 towns
Declare on the Arabs and move our stack in

IBT Lugnum riots ( I thought I was safe there My mistake )

710 AD T6
Start our GA and destroy the Arabs
Rush the Harbour
Turn down the science slider to 20% and we are +472 gold

IBT We get Nav and I start on Physics. I figure galleons are our next goal

720 AD T7
Upgrade 8 galleys to caravels
Load 8 Cassocks in 3 cars (That's got to be enough to take Denver)
70% science and 20% lux gives us physics in 4 with a 9gpt surplus
Take a tour of cities

IBT Nada

730 AD T8
Put an army on the caravel with space and move the three cars to the launch square

IBT Zzzzz

740 AD T9
start the transport
worker moves
Check the domestic advisor

IBT Zzzz

750 AD T10
Keep the transport going. found a bunch of cities and keep the workers going. Sal will be able to unload 8 cossacks and an army next turn and attack Denver the next. There are another 2 armies and a cassock 1 turn behind and 9 more cossacks the turn after that. We have a bunch of settlers and don't need any more

I changed a bunch of corrupt cities to wealth this turn (didn't know what else to make). Some settlers are still in the works.

The riots sucked but other than that I think the main goals were accomplished but it wasn't really that intereting set. You should check on the towns to see if any riots are in the works (I think maybe Lugnum is in danger)
I stopped all the goto units but the cats and elite swords (could be disbanded) are heading to Anjar as were the galleys

Take it away Sal

 

[Bucephalus]

Load 8 Cassocks in 3 cars

To keep our priests warm?

 

[Salarakas]

I got it and will play tonight as I'll probably have very little time on the period from the 23rd to the 29th of December.

 

[mr_2_you]

Load 8 Cassocks in 3 cars (That's got to be enough to take Denver)

no defensive units? we're not worried about a culture flip - revert? let's face it, we don't want to leave cossacks behind pulling guard duty, they should be out taking other cities (on new continent)