[Extension] Pineappledan Tweaks for VP

[Stalker0]

I need a refresher tho. How is the tourism on TR completion calculated? It’s a % of the culture that has been generated in you empire since the TR started, right? So increasing TR speed will make these yields smaller, but more frequent, and overall the same?

No clue, to the modders with you!

If you want Hoover to just be the "take if going CV" wonder than I agree with your logic, but just to be clear....that's what it is right now. So then I guess the question is, is the straight CV boost better than the more subtle Smithsonian "more culture = faster policies and techs = even more culture = more tourism through historical bonuses and the like". My gut says that yes...the Hoover should be the stronger straight CV play. While its not the most exciting niche, I guess it is a niche...and technically the "standard" niche for America compared to vanilla VP.

So if we are going with this kind of Hoover push, here is my recommendation.


Hoover Dam
1500
Available at Electricity
Mutually exclusive
22 to Every World Wonder on Empire
+5Gold and Production to Hotels and Stadiums on Empire
-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
10% of Gold in all cities is converted to Production
FREE Hydro Plant in this City
+25% of the Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and Tiles in all cities' contributes to Tourism Output.
+1 , and Trade Routes move 100% faster.

If we are going CV, than by gum lets push it. Making it hotels gives the wonder an earlier boost, and encourages a tall civ to get hotels in all of its cities (as Tall civs tend to be hammer starved sometimes they will just focus the hotel in the capital and ignore the other cities... this gives them encouragement). Also, Tall civs can often be coal starved (I have had many a game where I had zero coal as Tall)....so the factories could be VERY late in the wrong circumstances, whereas hotels are more consistent.

The extra TR just rounds out the economics, and gives them a little more bit of a general bonus that is not wholly tied to CV...in case they have to pivot late game.

 

[pineappledan]

Agreed on the Hotels, I had been meaning to change that factory bonus, because it stopped being thematic, and it's the only boosted building with a resource requirement.

I'd prefer not to go the free TR route. I'm adding a global TR end tourism booster for now.

 

[pineappledan]

Update posted.
Hoover now boosts Hotel/Stadium
Hoover now has a global Tourism boost to TRs to major civs. It is the strength of the Caravansary/Harbor and Customs House boosts combined, and from any of your cities.

With the nature of TR tourism bonuses resolved, the TR speed bonus is hypothetically a 2x multiplier on Tourism yields from TRs. It's possible the Tourism boost increase won't be too noticeable, So I think that will be sufficient for now.

 

[ridjack]

Unless I'm missing something, there's currently nowhere in-game that shows the three unique NWs America can build. I had to pick over the list in the 'pedia to find them and see what they did.

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah, they are locked behind independence hall, a 4th wonder so that they don’t create bloat on the civ select screen. They’re hidden like the Venetian wonders

 

[ridjack]

But the Civilopedia for the Piazza San Marco lists what they are so you can look them up.

Spoiler :

 

[Dovaj]

Am I correct in thinking that one would have some pretty strange conflicts if I try to use this, More Wonders, and Enlightenment Era at the same time?

 

[pineappledan]

@N.Core made a EE compatibility fix for this mod.

There is no reason why More wonders and this mod should conflict.

I don't know anything about EE and MW's compatibility though

 

[pineappledan]

First time with a legit playthrough all the way up to Industrial since I made this mod. Playing Canada, so I even have a unique scout line UU.

I haven’t really gotten into a real barn-burner war, but I’m loving how the commando is enough offensive power to totally clear barbarian hordes. I managed to save my initial pathfinder, and I have a big continent to patrol, and he’s clearing huge 8+ tile swathes, clearing mountains in a single bound to get to the action. I went authority, so he has 133% modifier attacking barbs (25% on attack+Authority barb bonus+Brute force + conscript/morale+Trailblazer III) to make a big last hit for 80% of a barbarian knight’s HP. The old zeppelins were even more mobile, but with only 25 RCS last hitting with them was much harder. I’m enjoying zooming a couple of these guys around as anti-barb death squads.

I am thinking I might need to lower them to 30 CS, but I need to face them off against muskets and lancers before I make a final decision.

 

[Stalker0]

So far I haven’t found issue with the commandos strength, they are solid but I haven’t found them dominant compared to normal lines

 

[pineappledan]

hotfix contains text update for Independence Hall.
Fixes obsolete tech for Bandeirantes and unique scout units re: the Commando change.

 

[Drakle]

I'm a bit late to the whole America discussion, but I'm not really into the Smithsonian Institute and Hoover Dam. West Point looks fine, though not particularly sure why the bonus is to Artillery, but that isn't really an issue.

But well, the whole point of the later round of buildings is to keep the idea of expansion going. But aside from a generic -25% cost for Purchasing tiles, they all just have a bunch of fairly generic bonuses.

I think one of the wonders should model the American railway expansion. It had a ton of railway mileage, and the laying of railways was what really set off the actual consolidation of the Western Expansion. They owned the territory before the railways, but they hadn't really established and linked it properly with the nation properly back on the East Coast. The railways meant all of America's natural resources and production was now linked to its Internal market, and the World Market. So maybe some bonuses for resource tiles, both bonus and luxury, starting off small but much better if the city is linked by railway. Maybe something like production and gold bonus in each city on population growth, for every resource tile actively exploited. Be that just improved, or actively worked. The base gold and production could also be modified by how much of the workable range is owned by America, so being land grabby for even nothing tiles is still useful.

And while it came later, maybe instead of the Smithsonian slapping some science and Culture on Museums and Research Labs, it could instead model the Surburabanisation of America. (not that it was actually really a good thing in real life). So bonuses to Great People Improvements, and villages surrounding them, and around cities. So not some much expansion, but redevelopment of America's tiles into a bunch of suburbs surrounding their cities and GTI

And if I were doing something to West Point, I'd do something to represent how America dealt with Latin America, and later much of the rest of the world, in launching coups in nations that tried to break from its economic system, like United Fruit or Cuba with Sugar. So some direct military bonuses, but also some bonuses for having city-states in your pocket, and a club to make them stay in your pocket.

So America would thus have three types of expansion and development

West Point - Military conquest

Hoover - Railway and normal improvements

Smithsonian - GPI and Villages (Suburbs)

All three would play differently in terms of strategy, so would give a fair bit of variance for America. Hell maybe a fourth one, for a more tourism victory, which has a general tourism and culture bonus on hotels, with tile bonuses for having undeveloped tiles (national parks) and Natural Wonders, giving America a way to play later wide Tourism.

 

[pineappledan]

Lol, @Drakle, a global bonus to GPTIs and villages is exactly what Venice’s Rialto district already does.

also I’ve said it before, but if I am going to get a say on anything it is Absolutely. No. Diplomatic. Bonuses. Canada is the diplo civ; America can do literally anything else.

 

[InkAxis]

Lol, @Drakle, a global bonus to GPTIs and villages is exactly what Venice’s Rialto district already does.

also I’ve said it before, but if I am going to get a say on anything it is Absolutely. No. Diplomatic. Bonuses. Canada is the diplo civ; America can do literally anything else.

Most of what he talked about wasn't diplo, not sure what you're on about. And anyway Austria, Germany, etc. are all civs that have diplo bonuses, why does canada matter? We can add more bonuses as long as they are unique. I think what you mean is his west point proposal, and that is very different from Canada or any other civ. It would probably reward bullying, doing CS coups, and establishing spheres. Maybe doing those actions could give a free franchise in that CS and give a boost of Gold. But, that might be new code.
I like the idea of a rail bonus, it is thematic but not sure how to implement it.
Overall I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss these ideas, they are good and don't have any overlap except maybe the GPTI/Village stuff, but even that can probably be done in a unique way. The only issue might be that new code is required.

 

[Stalker0]

It had a ton of railway mileage, and the laying of railways was what really set off the actual consolidation of the Western Expansion.

Again, this is not a push for these ideas, just more of a "are these possible" to explore the design space.

• Allows roads to instantly upgrade to railroads.
• Give worker's a massive reduction in railroad creation turns without effecting other types of improvements.

 

[pineappledan]

Most of what he talked about wasn't diplo, not sure what you're on about. And anyway Austria, Germany, etc. are all civs that have diplo bonuses, why does canada matter? We can add more bonuses as long as they are unique. I think what you mean is his west point proposal, and that is very different from Canada or any other civ. It would probably reward bullying, doing CS coups, and establishing spheres. Maybe doing those actions could give a free franchise in that CS and give a boost of Gold. But, that might be new code.

Canada and the US are both white European settler-colonial nations right next to each other. They were effectively the same country until 1775. They still share almost all the same cultural, historical, and linguistic signifiers, with the exception of greater Spanish/Mexican influence on the US and more French influence in Canada. The border between the two countries is arbitrary, following almost no geographic or cultural boundaries so even that dividing line is pure fiction. If they are to be kept as two distinct civs, they need to have clearly delineated differences in gameplay. They're both already late-game, expansionist civs. They both focus on Gold, and they both have unique national wonders. That's quite enough. America has plenty of other history to touch on; I see no reason to go that direction. It's a complete non-starter and it will get you nowhere to keep pushing, so let's leave it at that.

Drakle's West Point proposal has nothing to do with West Point anyways. All that business in Latin America was the CIA. West Point is a US Army academy, and the US never formally invaded any of those countries, ie. the Army never ***officially*** got involved.

Likewise, the Hoover Dam has nothing to do with railroads. It's a dam, first off, and it was completed in 1936, 67 years after the First Transcontinental Railroad. Hoover Dam does form part of a Highway extension though.

 

[Stalker0]

Likewise, the Hoover Dam has nothing to do with railroads. It's a dam, first off, and it was completed in 1936, 67 years after the First Transcontinental Railroad. Hoover Dam does form part of a Highway extension though.

True, but again we aren't forced into the current time period for the wonders. Maybe it would add a unique niche is one of the 3 wonders could be acquired earlier. I don't think we should stay married to the buildings chosen if good mechanical ideas come about in brainstorming, there is no reason it HAS to be the Hoover Dam... and frankly I still think the hoover dam concept is a little jenky compared to the others, so some fresh ideas there doesn't hurt.

Since we took that wonder in a more TR focused route, we could consider a more transportation focused wonder.... TRs + road/rail type of idea.

Like Union Pacific Railroad or something of that nature.

 

[pineappledan]

I literally just got done giving Canada a Railroad-related UB. Also, Canada's UA is called 'Northwest Passage', and claims tiles along internal trade routes.

 

[Drakle]

Drakle's West Point proposal has nothing to do with West Point anyways. All that business in Latin America was the CIA. West Point is a US Army academy, and the US never formally invaded any of those countries, ie. the Army never ***officially*** got involved.

The CIA wasn't a thing until after WW2, which is too late and is already sorta represented in-game by the National Wonder. And the US was carrying out coups and invasions well before then. And sure while they mostly used the Marines, the army was involved for some. West Point, like all Civ Wonders, is an abstraction, and I just meant bouncing off the concept of West Point, as a more military/domination wonder. I'm not really that attached to West Point itself.

Likewise, the Hoover Dam has nothing to do with railroads. It's a dam, first off, and it was completed in 1936, 67 years after the First Transcontinental Railroad. Hoover Dam does form part of a Highway extension though.

I literally just got done giving Canada a Railroad-related UB. Also, Canada's UA is called 'Northwest Passage', and claims tiles along internal trade routes.

I didn't say, Hoover Dam, I said one of the three wonders. Doing something with the railways means you don't have to add early Hydro Plants, and it could show up a bit earlier.

As for railway bonuses. Canada's is slapping gold and tourism on railway buildings, and claiming neutral territory. My idea was bonus yields from having improved resources and being a land hog. That's easily very different, and the land hog thing meshes with America's kit.

Finally, you also just said that Canada and America are very similar. Which is it? Can they not share literally any game mechanics, or are they are the same country?

Lol, @Drakle, a global bonus to GPTIs and villages is exactly what Venice’s Rialto district already does.

Flat Food and Tourism. I'm talking about adjacency bonuses for bordering each other. And could have different yields.

Anyway, it's clear that my ideas aren't going to gain traction, since you are leaping to take offence. I was just trying to suggest some ideas that aren't mostly just slapping flat bonuses on buildings and you're freaking out because one mod civ uses railways, and another uses villages and GTI, even though my idea is clearly different. I'm just going to say, that your America Tweak doesn't really interest me.

 

[pineappledan]

You're not exactly coming at this gracefully. Look at your post again and check the tone you use. When you suggest a bonus it is "modelling X" and "representing Y" and has a paragraph of history to back it up. When I did something it's "slapping yields on". No matter how much you belittle my designs, you can't expect me to just scrap a month and a half of work on the existing wonders to onboard your ideas so easily. And then you act wounded when I tell you I have set myself firmly against certain kinds of bonuses, like diplomatic ones, and give my reasons.

The details you give are sparse, but they would require a ton of new code that is outside my ability to create (I don't do C++), and hours more work coding, testing, and making new art. And at the end of the day would a building that unlocks adjacencies for non-GP improvements next to GPTI work so much better than one that gives the yields to the GPTI directly? Would a wonder be interesting if its yields scale for each workable tile (ie. caps at 36), but it unlocks in Industrial or later? Doesn't that mean 4/5 cities already have their full tile radius, so they are capped before the building is built? Is a military/diplomatic wonder that matches your description not a little too close to existing Autocracy tenets?