10 HP is no joke (especially when kept around for the rest of the game), and the numbers can be tweaked, but I think Stalker0's basic idea is sound.
[Extension] Pineappledan Tweaks for VP
- Thread starter pineappledan
- Start date
10 HP is no joke (especially when kept around for the rest of the game), and the numbers can be tweaked, but I think Stalker0's basic idea is sound.
pineappledan
Deity
What I don't think I've ever had properly explained to me in all this is how 25% ranged defense is weaker to some people's minds than 10% flanking and 10% defense? I don't want to beat a dead horse, but adding 10% ranged defense and 10HP hardly feels compensatory. You're also talking about making this promotion lost on upgrade, gone entirely at Tercio, only to make a return at Fusiliers.
Nope.
It's better in the long run (when stacked with other combat bonuses), is more flexible and allows for Cover I & II to be taken as lvl promotions for the unit if needed.
pineappledan
Deity
So you want it to have the exact same bonuses as entrenchment promotion line, and stack with them?
I'm in the camp that says +25% ranged defense is stronger.
As to the HP idea, the way Civ combat math works.....hitpoints are a big deal, often worth much more than CS % bonuses in terms of overall durability, and of course they always apply no matter the situation.
data modified still says sat noon, which is the ver i downloaded. is this one new on the first page link?
pineappledan
Deity
Yeah, because I didn’t change anything, because it’s working as intended for me
pineappledan
Deity
that’s all well and good, but why do you want to give HP and ranged defense to sword units that will stay on promotion and potentially stack with the same bonuses given to all gun units later on, and the Zulu Buffalo line?
I find it amusing that I was the one who suggested adding HP to the melee ship line, and now any promotion change since then that has ever come up has had people lobbying for more HP. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
your right when we did the recent scout promotion streamline everyone was asking for more hp…oh wait no they weren’t, no one asked for more hp.
The melee line already uses the mechanic for part of its line, so it seemed at least worth a consideration.
Heinz_Guderian
Prince
I think 25% ranged defense is better than sidearm for sure.
pineappledan
Deity
You and @Hinin are in disagreement there. It might stay on promotion because otherwise Renaissance/tercio is the only era/unit without this kind of promotion
Naval melee dreadnought line, then the GDR, all gun units, the Zulu, and now here.
I guess I'm one of the few that personally like Sidearm 
Sure, 10% is not 25% from cover, but it applies to all defense, not just ranged attacks, and then consider the flanking bonus.
I'm not really against trying the HP idea either though.
Sure, 10% is not 25% from cover, but it applies to all defense, not just ranged attacks, and then consider the flanking bonus. I'm not really against trying the HP idea either though.
You could go two ways with it. Flavor wise, the Tercio represents a major step forward, you have combined anti-horse and your "hardened infantry" together in one, and this is the point where we start to forego armor. So you could just say, yes the tercio is special, but this is also a special point in history, and the Tercio is gaining a major bonus already.
Or...you could just give them the bonus as well and keep it consistent across the line, perhaps with a drop of its CS from 25 to 24....or keep it at 25 if you think the Tercio could use a bit more oomph.
As to your point about this being "more omnipresent", I'm actually taking a page from your book. You desired the scout line to be more consistent, well now the melee line would be more consistent. We aren't adding something that the line already doesn't have, we are just extending it more into the line.
hehe all that said, I am perfectly happy with cover on my swords and longswords, but if you really want to change it, this would give more consistency and allow you to drop your sword CS to 16 (probably, I'd have to look at the math).
pineappledan
Deity
Is it working as intended for people? It's working for me:
So you'd have:
[INSERT_NAME_HERE] (Sword + Longsword + tercio) - 10HP / 10% Ranged defense
Field Works (Fusilier) - 15HP / 15% Ranged defense
Entrenchments (Rifleman) - 20HP / 20% Ranged defense
DFPs (Infantry + Mechanized Infantry) - 25HP / 25% Ranged defense
So as for the name, it could be something like "Professional Soldiers". The swordsmen and longswords would be representative of the better trained and equipped small professional army core that is augmented by a larger peasant levy, as depicted by the spear and pikemen. Then, with the Tercio and going into the Rennaissance, you see the position of peasant levies fade out, as state armies with larger militaries composed of professionalized soldiers becomes the norm.
Spoiler Proof :
Well it certainly would be more consistent, which I like.
So you'd have:
[INSERT_NAME_HERE] (Sword + Longsword + tercio) - 10HP / 10% Ranged defense
Field Works (Fusilier) - 15HP / 15% Ranged defense
Entrenchments (Rifleman) - 20HP / 20% Ranged defense
DFPs (Infantry + Mechanized Infantry) - 25HP / 25% Ranged defense
So as for the name, it could be something like "Professional Soldiers". The swordsmen and longswords would be representative of the better trained and equipped small professional army core that is augmented by a larger peasant levy, as depicted by the spear and pikemen. Then, with the Tercio and going into the Rennaissance, you see the position of peasant levies fade out, as state armies with larger militaries composed of professionalized soldiers becomes the norm.
Then that means spear/pike upgraded into tercio are going to have one more promotion than the swords?
pineappledan
Deity
Tercio would have both the sword line and spear line promotions. They already have the spear line promotion. Fusilier already have both lines (field works and formation). the modern rifleman unit drops the formation line after mounted units cease to exist
What they mean is the following:
1) Pikes have formation I by default. When upgrading to Tercio, they also get formation I and would get the heavy armor/professional soldiers promotion.
2) A longsword upgraded to a Tercio would keep its prof soliders promotion, but recieve nothing else.
So the concern was pikes are getting a better end of the deal.
So lets take a look and see if this theoretical upgrade would actually allow swords to be competitive in various ways.
As c bows are their nemesis, lets see how they stack up.
New Concept
CS 11 (no promotions)
vs
CS 16 * 1.10 (new ranged defense)
Damage: 21.82
With 110 hp, it can take 5.04 shots on average
Original
CS 11
vs
CS 17 * 1.25 (cover)
Damage: 18.12
With 100 hp, it can take 5.52 shots on average
So ultimately the original sword is still stronger but at least we are in the ballpark. If we then bump it to 15 hp and 15% range its basically right on the money, with both right around 5.5 shots to kill.
So with that tweak, you have a sword at CS 16 that can take ranged attacks as well as the CS17 cover version, it gains more toughness when fighting melee troops but at the cost of requiring more healing to get it back to full (ultimately it takes more damage than the CS 17 cover version, hence more healing). And you could always tweak the values for more UU design space, a CS 15 with a heavier version of the promotion is now a viable option.
As c bows are their nemesis, lets see how they stack up.
New Concept
CS 11 (no promotions)
vs
CS 16 * 1.10 (new ranged defense)
Damage: 21.82
With 110 hp, it can take 5.04 shots on average
Original
CS 11
vs
CS 17 * 1.25 (cover)
Damage: 18.12
With 100 hp, it can take 5.52 shots on average
So ultimately the original sword is still stronger but at least we are in the ballpark. If we then bump it to 15 hp and 15% range its basically right on the money, with both right around 5.5 shots to kill.
So with that tweak, you have a sword at CS 16 that can take ranged attacks as well as the CS17 cover version, it gains more toughness when fighting melee troops but at the cost of requiring more healing to get it back to full (ultimately it takes more damage than the CS 17 cover version, hence more healing). And you could always tweak the values for more UU design space, a CS 15 with a heavier version of the promotion is now a viable option.
pineappledan
Deity
I still don't get it. I thought the idea was to make the heavy armor/professionalism promotion lost on upgrade so it can morph into larger, more powerful versions of itself starting at fusiliers.
1) Pikes have formation I by default. When upgrading to Tercio, they also get formation I and heavy armor/professionalism
2) Longswords have armor/professionalism by default. When upgrading to Tercio, they also get armor/professionalism and Formation I
we aren't discussing dropping formation from the tercios/fusiliers. At Tercio, both unit promotion lines merge.
Similar threads
[Extension]
Hinin's Tweaks for VP