Playstation 4 and your real name

[hobbsyoyo]

That's a completely pointless reasoning considering that when it comes to information, anonymity and privacy are exactly the same - what allows someone to keep his privacy IS to be anonymous.

It is only pointless because you refuse to acknowledge the difference.

Also, you're pretty clueless when you think that removing anonymity is going to ends up with less jerkassery - that's the opposite. The ones who have to lose the most when everything is laid bare are the preys, not the predators.

Do you have any evidence or reasoning to back this up?

And anyway, thinking that the BASIC RIGHT of having our own privacy is trumped by "let's shame someone who made a bad comment online" is seriously f'ed up.

I see, ANGRY CAPS so you win. By the way, I don't remeber privacy being in the bill of rights.

Then again, you can take my argument, refuse to acknowledge it has any validty and then twist it into some absurdity and attack the absurdity with ANGRY CAPS and walk away the 'winner'.

People seem to miss that I am not saying everyone should have to give out their real name. I am simply saying it could have advantages and isn't necessarily the end of western civilization. I digress though, the point of this thread seems to be LET ME BE PARANOID YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE REASONS and I can't argue with that.

I would appreciate it if you could expand upon what, exactly, is the danger involved here. With a system like “log in w/ Facebook” active on a variety of sites users would accrue a variety of benefits, such as:

• Fewer trolls (as newspaper websites have demonstrated)
• More convenience to the user w/ fewer logins to remember
• Cross-Platform chatter (“Hey, I saw your post on CFC that you are active on Hungry Mouse’s page too; did you see the great duck recipe they posted there?&#8221
• A unified online presence

And what’s the cost? Your online anonymity. Not even your privacy, just your anonymity. You don’t need to share any information w/ anybody except you name.

If you don’t like that then why do you value your anonymity so highly?

No those aren't valid reasin because BASIC RIGHTS (tm) are being raped by corporations. You give up liberty for security and online society collapses! Plus, I have it on good authority (Farm Boy) that punks will be punks even if they aren't anonymous because social pressures don't work as well as I think because it's online man.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I find that people either strongly agree with me or lash out on this topic. It's quite apparently a very hot issue.

The only people I see lashing out are those who agree with you. The rest of us would like to have a conversation but apparently nothing that disagrees with your stance is worth reading because ANGRY CAPS BASIC LIBERTIES AND STUFF. I don't even think a single person here has even acknowledged what I have been saying (or really anything anyone who doesn't comoletely agree with your stance) in this thread, it's all been strawman handwaved away.

 

[Mise]

To use a real name-only example, I really don't think Facebook has less of a problem with trolling/flaming/abuse/harassment/bullying than anywhere else. I mean, have you seen Facebook's public pages? It's a cesspool. There are even people signing up to rape-glorifying groups and pages with their real names. If anything it's much worse.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

To use a real name-only example, I really don't think Facebook has less of a problem with trolling/flaming/abuse/harassment/bullying than anywhere else. I mean, have you seen Facebook's public pages? It's a cesspool. There are even people signing up to rape-glorifying groups and pages with their real names.

I suppose you are right then, anonymity is the only way.

 

[Farm Boy]

To use a real name-only example, I really don't think Facebook has less of a problem with trolling/flaming/abuse/harassment/bullying than anywhere else. I mean, have you seen Facebook's public pages? It's a cesspool. There are even people signing up to rape-glorifying groups and pages with their real names. If anything it's much worse.

This is a good thing to look at. People, adult and children have been jerks on the internet almost as long as the internet has been around. It makes some places/games cumbersome to use because of the trolling/abuse. Agreed with Hobbs there. But lets take a careful look at when online bullying and abuse have become much more of an emotional issue. Mostly when online personalities became tied to offline people - particularly adolescents. I will admit, sure, maybe some of this is because online interaction is now more ubiquitous. But I rather think no small part of it is because now when you communicate online via twitter, or facebook, or your SonyID, or whatever - it's you. You aren't just user1583743802 on Facebook. If people want to make fun of you for crapping your pants in middle school while you're sick, or call you a "loose woman" because they think you slept with their boyfriend, or whatever - that follows you online on accounts with your real name. And those accounts follow you home, around in your pocket, and if using realID names then sure, onto your Playstation as well.

Real name logins might be convenient because they take out some of the dross and trash we have to sift through commonly, but I would wager it makes abuse and bullying that has the capacity to raise to harmful levels ever more pervasive, persistence, everpresent, and for some - inescapable. It increases the damage done to those who are most vulnerable to it.

 

[Silurian]

People change there views with time especially when they are young. Should people be tied to what they post forever.

From BBC

The UK's first youth police and crime commissioner, Paris Brown, has resigned from her post following criticism of messages she posted on Twitter.

The 17-year-old said she was quitting in the interests of everyone concerned, in particular the young people of Kent.

Police are investigating her over tweets she posted between the ages of 14 and 16 which could be considered racist and anti-gay.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22083032

 

[Akka]

It is only pointless because you refuse to acknowledge the difference.

There is a conceptual difference between privacy and anonymity, yes.
But, and I specifically pointed at it, when it comes to INFORMATION, privacy and anonymity are one and the same. It's pretty obvious when you're not being purposedly dense.

Do you have any evidence or reasoning to back this up?

It's, again, pretty obvious for anyone not being purposedly an idiot (or being unable to think more than a second).
First and foremost, the very concept of privacy is keeping personnal information restricted to people you're comfortable with. As such, it's privacy which suffers when information is revealed. As an aside, if you're going to play the "guilty by association" about trolls, I'll play the same and remind you that the entities which want the most to deprive people of privacy are authoritarian dicatorship.

Who is going to use personal information against someone else ? The regular guy, or the jerk wanting to ruin life for other ? Don't tell me you needed someone to point this one to you.

What is easier ? Using personnal information to harass someone, or protecting yourself from being harassed by random people you don't know who have your information ?

Maybe you should educate yourself and have a look at what online bullying means, and how common it's becoming, and how serious it is. Maybe it would open your eyes on the reality of depriving people of privacy.

I see, ANGRY CAPS so you win. By the way, I don't remeber privacy being in the bill of rights.

Well, I guess you can then take picture of your naked neighbour and post them everywhere in town and tell to the police "but but but people aren't entitled to privacy ! But but..." when they bring your ass to the tribunal.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

This is a good thing to look at. People, adult and children have been jerks on the internet almost as long as the internet has been around. It makes some places/games cumbersome to use because of the trolling/abuse. Agreed with Hobbs there. But lets take a careful look at when online bullying and abuse have become much more of an emotional issue. Mostly when online personalities became tied to offline people - particularly adolescents. I will admit, sure, maybe some of this is because online interaction is now more ubiquitous. But I rather think no small part of it is because now when you communicate online via twitter, or facebook, or your SonyID, or whatever - it's you. You aren't just user1583743802 on Facebook. If people want to make fun of you for crapping your pants in middle school while you're sick, or call you a "loose woman" because they think you slept with their boyfriend, or whatever - that follows you online on accounts with your real name. And those accounts follow you home, around in your pocket, and if using realID names then sure, onto your Playstation as well.

Real name logins might be convenient because they take out some of the dross and trash we have to sift through commonly, but I would wager it makes abuse and bullying that has the capacity to raise to harmful levels ever more pervasive, persistence, everpresent, and for some - inescapable. It increases the damage done to those who are most vulnerable to it.

How does losing anonymity make it easier for trolls to attack you, follow you around and harass you than it already is? How does it make it such attacks harder to stop? Myself and others have pointed out that social pressures and legal ones (it's easier to cease and desist a known person than a psuedonym that can be replaced with a knew login id and email adress) could at least, theoretically, make such harrasment more difficult. I haven't seen many real counters to that other than basically, 'you are wrong'. You should show how losing anonymity makes trolling/harassment worse before you dismiss even the possibility that it could make it better.*


*I will repeat myself again and state that I am not saying loss of anonymity necessarily is best, merely that there is potential upsides to it that no one, yourself included, seem to consider because reasons.

 

[Akka]

How does losing anonymity make it easier for trolls to attack you, follow you around and harass you than it already is? How does it make it such attacks harder to stop?

Are you for real or just playing dumb ?
Okay, stop typing for a few minutes and think about it. I'm pretty sure you can figure it yourself if you just try - because it's just so friggin' OBVIOUS it's impossible for anyone to not get it.

 

[Mise]

@hobbsyoyo: Well it just doesn't work that way in real life. A good friend of mine has been stalked on facebook, and it's not as simple as just blocking them. The stalker comes back, with different accounts, or they harass friends. One stalker that one of my friends had messaged one of their friends saying that he was an old friend of the victim and wanted to get back in touch, so please give me the victim's phone number/address. Obviously that's dodgy as hell and my friend said no, but if he messages 100 of the victim's friends then maybe one of them will be stupid or naive enough to give the details to him.

Reporting the problem to an authority? Not a chance! Facebook and the police like to talk a good game about preventing bullying, but it doesn't work like that in practice. I had another friend who was being harassed by her ex boyfriend's new girlfriend. Complained to facebook, nothing happened. Kept complaining, reporting, nothing happened. It just doesn't work the way you (plural) think it works in theory. You (plural) would think that hitting the report button would alert FB to the potential threat and they'd do something about it. But it doesn't work that way in reality.

A lot of us live in an idealised bubble; I personally have never experienced any form of online harassment, so to me, the "report", "block", and at a last resort "call the police" buttons are enough. But it doesn't work that way in practice. The only form of online harassment I have any understanding of is on Facebook -- which follows Farm Boy's description much more closely than it does yours. If someone harasses you on CFC or reddit or whatever, you just delete your account and come back with a new username. You can't do that on facebook, because you can't just delete your real name and come back with a new real name. There's often no way out of facebook harassment.

Once you link an online identity to a real life identity, the whole thing changes from a nuisance to a threat. That's the real point of this. You're looking at it from the POV of a troll, but from the POV of a victim, having your stalkers and harassers know your real identity is a HUGE threat to your personal safety.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

There is a conceptual difference between privacy and anonymity, yes.
But, and I specifically pointed at it, when it comes to INFORMATION, privacy and anonymity are one and the same. It's pretty obvious when you're not being purposedly dense.

No they are not one in the same.

It's, again, pretty obvious for anyone not being purposedly an idiot (or being unable to think more than a second).

My mother screws pigs, my wife is my sister, and I am a morbidly obese 12 year old Thai prositute. Are there any more ad hominems I can make against me that will make your argument even more correct? I am happy to lend a hand.

First and foremost, the very concept of privacy is keeping information secret.

I can have privacy while people know who I am. That's how it works in real life, please explain why it must necessarily be different online?

As such, it's privacy which suffers when information is revealed. As an aside, if you're going to play the "guilty by association" about trolls, I'll play the same and remind you that the entities which want the most to deprive people of privacy are authoritarian dicatorship.

Guilt by association? You call me an idiot but you've missed my salient point I have repeated multiple times for you. Guilt by association, while a strong strawman, isn't it.

Who is going to use personal information against someone else ? The regular guy, or the jerk wanting to ruin life for other ? Don't tell me you needed someone to point this one to you.

How is your name personal information? How does that divulge other information that you don't share? How is it harder to stop a named jerk than an anonymous one? Please point it out to me as I am obviously an idiot.

What is easier ? Using personnal information to harass someone, or protecting yourself from being harassed by people you don't know who have your information ?

Yes, I face constant harassment everyday from all the people who know my name. Talk about confusing privacy with anonymity - you act like having your name known means people will have access to your SSN, address, checking numbers and how many wipes you did before you flushed.

Maybe you should educate yourself and have a look at what online bullying means, and how common it's becoming, and how serious it is. Maybe it would open your eyes on the reality of depriving people of privacy.

I know, I am hopelessly ******** and the more insults you throw, the dumber I look. Please explain to me again the difference between privacy and anonymity.

Well, I guess you can then take picture of your naked neighbour and post them everywhere in town and tell to the police "but but but people aren't entitled to privacy ! But but..." when they bring your ass to the tribunal.

So I can't know my neighbors name because that means I could then take snooping pictures of them. Gotcha, I have been so confused on the difference betweem privacy and anonymity, you really cleared that up. Thanks.

 

[AlpsStranger]

If you don’t like that then why do you value your anonymity so highly?

Because it allows me to function. I would only have a very limited online life without anonymity. It's not really so I can be vicious, though I'm obviously no saint, it's just a comfort zone thing for me. Besides, BvBPL, there are some things that have happened in my life that make anonymity an issue. There are people I'm avoiding, if you must know. Is that so wrong of me? There are enemies/frenemies I have that I quite appreciate being able to enjoy online gaming without them knowing about it.

If this forum were real-name only I would've made about 3 posts in the Civ4 forum and wouldn't have approached OT or anything else. You may consider that an improvement, I suppose, but there it is.

@hobbsyoyo: Please, don't take it the wrong way. Some of us value our anonymity very highly. I'm sorry if this thread has gotten out of hand.

So yes, hobbs, there are definitely upsides to losing anonymity, but when I look at the character of the anti-anonymity posts they keep using the word "accountability," and that's what scares me. They want it to be like "You trolled that thread that one time, I hope somebody caves your head in/doesn't hire you for a job/posts embarrassing pictures of you from highschool." The mechanics of the "accountability" itself are pretty scary, really. All this "accountability" will do is give more power to the powerful.

Your boss could decide that, after Sandy Hook, he's not hiring anyone who plays online shooters. Now SonyID+"Right to work" state and now your choice of Playstation game could cost you in the real world. Some of you will think "great, we can finally get these degenerates to pay for what they've done!" but I think you'll have to see why I wouldn't agree.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

@hobbsyoyo: Well it just doesn't work that way in real life. A good friend of mine has been stalked on facebook, and it's not as simple as just blocking them. The stalker comes back, with different accounts, or they harass friends. One stalker that one of my friends had messaged one of their friends saying that he was an old friend of the victim and wanted to get back in touch, so please give me the victim's phone number/address. Obviously that's dodgy as hell and my friend said no, but if he messages 100 of the victim's friends then maybe one of them will be stupid or naive enough to give the details to him.

Reporting the problem to an authority? Not a chance! Facebook and the police like to talk a good game about preventing bullying, but it doesn't work like that in practice. I had another friend who was being harassed by her ex boyfriend's new girlfriend. Complained to facebook, nothing happened. Kept complaining, reporting, nothing happened. It just doesn't work the way you (plural) think it works in theory. You (plural) would think that hitting the report button would alert FB to the potential threat and they'd do something about it. But it doesn't work that way in reality.

A lot of us live in an idealised bubble; I personally have never experienced any form of online harassment, so to me, the "report", "block", and at a last resort "call the police" buttons are enough. But it doesn't work that way in practice. The only form of online harassment I have any understanding of is on Facebook -- which follows Farm Boy's description much more closely than it does yours. If someone harasses you on CFC or reddit or whatever, you just delete your account and come back with a new username. You can't do that on facebook, because you can't just delete your real name and come back with a new real name. There's often no way out of facebook harassment.

Once you link an online identity to a real life identity, the whole thing changes from a nuisance to a threat. That's the real point of this. You're looking at it from the POV of a troll, but from the POV of a victim, having your stalkers and harassers know your real identity is a HUGE threat to your personal safety.

So facebook sucks at protecting it's users. That shows that facebook sucks, not that the entire idea is wrong.

Also, you don't have to share more than your name, nor do you have to use facebook or any other service and if you do, you don't have to share all personal information with everyone.

 

[Akka]

I have only one thing to repeat to this dreadful display of ignorance and post-slicing :

Maybe you should educate yourself and have a look at what online bullying means, and how common it's becoming, and how serious it is. Maybe it would open your eyes on the reality of depriving people of privacy.

There have been enough documented examples for it to be sufficient - if you only bother to actually do it, and do it in good faith, that is.

(and it's only about the nefarious consequences of online bullying, it doesn't even speak of the simple and totally legitimate desire to be able to keep personnal information to oneself, even if it wasn't going to be misused ; but trying to explain such a concept to people who don't even understand how displaying your information to the world at large can be potentially damaging is not going to work, so let's do it one step at a time)

 

[Mise]

So facebook sucks at protecting it's users. That shows that facebook sucks, not that the entire idea is wrong.

Also, you don't have to share more than your name, nor do you have to use facebook or any other service and if you do, you don't have to share all personal information with everyone.

Having to depend on a company to protect you from harassment sucks.... Being at the mercy of a company to protect you from harassment -- and being forced to give your stalkers and harassers your real identity -- is what is wrong with the entire idea.

If you don't get why it is a terrible, horrible idea for your stalker to have your real identity then, well, what can I say...

 

[BvBPL]

Also, you're pretty clueless when you think that removing anonymity is going to ends up with less jerkassery - that's the opposite. The ones who have to lose the most when everything is laid bare are the preys, not the predators.

I have difficulty believing that you would suggest that the posters here are clueless idiots spurting out nocturnal emission who don’t even understand basic consumer rights because they are being purposefully dense if you didn’t have a shield of anonymity. If your vulgar insults do not amount to the true jerkassery you warn us of then I shudder to think what your fetid imagination believes to be the real deal.

The growing inability of people to graps the concept of "privacy" is frankly frightening.
We don't even need to get an authoritarian government, the masses of clueless idiots are doing its job themselves.

Hello, "consumer rights", does it ring a bell or does some libertarian wet dream took over reality when I wasn't looking ?

Guess you don't even understand what a consumer right is then.

There is a conceptual difference between privacy and anonymity, yes.
But, and I specifically pointed at it, when it comes to INFORMATION, privacy and anonymity are one and the same. It's pretty obvious when you're not being purposedly dense.

It's, again, pretty obvious for anyone not being purposedly an idiot (or being unable to think more than a second).

 

[Farm Boy]

How is your name personal information? How does that divulge other information that you don't share?

I think I've found a divide. This situation isn't usually Megan is Missing. Online harassment, bullying, stalking, persistent cruelty. These things aren't usually done by some random mouthbreathing creeper fomr 9 states away that just saw you online. This is done by people who have or have had a connection in real life. They already know more than just your name.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Having to depend on a company to protect you from harassment sucks.... Being at the mercy of a company to protect you from harassment -- and being forced to give your stalkers and harassers your real identity -- is what is wrong with the entire idea.

If you don't get why it is a terrible, horrible idea for your stalker to have your real identity then, well, what can I say...

You don't have to depend on the company either - don't use them and/or don't share personal information. Your name isn't that divulging since if that is all you are going to share, people are going to have to dig hard or hack to get more than just that. Not sharing your name doesn't throw up much more of a barrier to a determined asshat who is going to stalk you. It isn't facebook's fault if you choose to share more info than your name with random people.

I have only one thing to repeat to this dreadful display of ignorance and post-slicing :

There have been enough documented examples for it to be sufficient - if you only bother to actually do it, and do it in good faith, that ua.

(and it's only about the nefarious consequences of online bullying, it doesn't even speak of the simple and totally legitimate desire to be able to keep personnal information to oneself, even if it wasn't going to be misused ; but trying to explain such a concept to people who don't even understand how displaying your information to the world at large can be potentially damaging is not going to work, so let's do it one step at a time)

Post slicing? Like you haven't done that...Also, please post such studies and documented examples since I am OBVIOUSLY (to borrow the caps lock button from you) too dumb to know better.

Are you for real or just playing dumb ?
Okay, stop typing for a few minutes and think about it. I'm pretty sure you can figure it yourself if you just try - because it's just so friggin' OBVIOUS it's impossible for anyone to not get it.

I am obviously stupid, please continue pointing that out in ANGRY CAPS nstead of making actual points.

 

[AlpsStranger]

And see, this is exactly what I mean.

BvBPL wants us tied to our real names so we're nicer. I get that and I can understand that, but there's another side to this. Anonymity means that what happens here stays here, for the most part, and nobody will have it follow them to work or Facebook. That has value too, I think.

Needing to use your real name just to play a game online is excessive.

Look, if you prefer real name only forums then start one. I wouldn't fault you one bit. If you like that sort of atmosphere then have at it, I won't stop you. The problem is that you want to force me to use the internet the way you prefer. I'm not trying to tell you that you shouldn't have anonymity free places, but you are trying to tell me I shouldn't have anonymous places.

I've already said that I'm not buying the PS4. If it's real name only I will do the right thing and not use it instead of trying to force them to change it. What else do you want from me? Do you want me to just capitulate and stop using pseudonyms right now? Sign up for Facebook immediately?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

And see, this is exactly what I mean.

BvBPL wants us tied to our real names so we're nicer. I get that and I can understand that, but there's another side to this. Anonymity means that what happens here stays here, for the most part, and nobody will have it follow them to work or Facebook. That has value too, I think.

Needing to use your real name just to play a game online is excessive.

Look, if you prefer real name only forums then start one. I wouldn't fault you one bit. If you like that sort of atmosphere then have at it, I won't stop you. The problem is that you want to force me to use the internet the way you prefer. I'm not trying to tell you that you shouldn't have anonymity free places, but you are trying to tell me I shouldn't have anonymous places.

We get you are paranoid (not meaning that as an insult), now please explain how loss of anonymity has absolutely no potential upsides besides the fact that you personally won't stand for it? That's really all I am after, to get you to acknowledge this isn't black and white. However you are so (rightfully) concerned with this that your not even considering any possible upsides.

No offense, but you are bordering on 'taxes are theft' in your approach to the issue. The senseless, reflexive rigidity doesn't serve you well IMO.