pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
- Thread starter Imrahil91
- Start date
VRWCAgent,
But there's no reason that it's your land. It's your land because of the entirely contingent fact that you happened to have been born there. You could have been born in Saudi Arabia, and that would be "your land." You could have been born in the Soviet Union, and that would be "your land." You'd place your "ultimate loyalty" in those regimes?
That's exactly what Shaw was getting at -- the utter meaninglessness of supporting "your land." Now, I love America. I happened to be born here, but that's not why I think it's great. I love the rule of law, and equality, and liberty -- all the things in our Constitution that set us apart from the villainous regimes elsewhere. Without the Constitution, America's just some dirt between Canada and Mexico -- dirt upon which I happen to have been born, but dirt nonetheless.
"I love my country because of its tradition of liberty and equality" is justified pride in something good beyond one's self. "My country, right or wrong" is nothing more than authoritarianism.
Cleo
But there's no reason that it's your land. It's your land because of the entirely contingent fact that you happened to have been born there. You could have been born in Saudi Arabia, and that would be "your land." You could have been born in the Soviet Union, and that would be "your land." You'd place your "ultimate loyalty" in those regimes?
That's exactly what Shaw was getting at -- the utter meaninglessness of supporting "your land." Now, I love America. I happened to be born here, but that's not why I think it's great. I love the rule of law, and equality, and liberty -- all the things in our Constitution that set us apart from the villainous regimes elsewhere. Without the Constitution, America's just some dirt between Canada and Mexico -- dirt upon which I happen to have been born, but dirt nonetheless.
"I love my country because of its tradition of liberty and equality" is justified pride in something good beyond one's self. "My country, right or wrong" is nothing more than authoritarianism.
Cleo
The "motherland" or "fatherland" if you will, to steal some -ism speak.
Basically, Missouri. Honestly, I personally feel no particular love for Alaska or Colorado or Florida beyond them simply being fellow sovereign States in our (voluntary) Union. Missouri, on the other hand, is my home, my land.
EDIT: Bad move on my part listing Colorado. My visit there left me in awe.
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
However, mainly conservatives treat it like it's one. They freek out of their precious flag has been desecrated or burned!
Berzerker
Deity
Apparently you need to read the pledge you want children reciting everyday. "I pledge allegiance to the flag, AND to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God", etc... There are several concepts in the pledge.
But millions of Americans do have specific religions (or none) that dont include the state's God. The pledge violates their religious liberty. Btw, God is religious specific as a concept and as a specific concept within the realm of religion - its called monotheism and there's only one God Congress had in mind.
Didn't I just explain that? Here, I'll quote myself
Once again you've repeated what I said and acted like I never said it. Now, where in the Constitution does it say children are not citizens and Congress can ignore the Bill of Rights when children are involved?
The irony here is that you're arguing for a congressional power based on a parental right to oversee the religious upbringing of children in order to deny parents that very right. Do you see that? Mom and Dad get to choose their kid's religion, therefore Congress gets to coerce their kid into the state's religion even though Mom and Dad reject it. Orwel is alive and kicking...
The states determined voting age for nearly 200 years, but under the original Constitution a small minority of people had voting privileges. Does that mean Congress could have ignored the Bill of Rights when women and blacks were involved? Thats your argument to deny children those protections...
So where in the Constitution have you found the power of Congress to coerce pledges of allegiance from children? The Constitution is the law of the land and all federal laws must be based on the powers given to Congress in the Constitution. Hell, education and schools aren't even in the Constitution. Thats a state matter... There aint nothing in the Constitution allowing Congress to dictate public school policy.
Of course practical application matters, thats where the rubber meets the road. Up until the Bill of Rights is actually applied, its all just words...
However, mainly conservatives treat it like it's one. They freek out of their precious flag has been desecrated or burned!
While they ride around with a confederate flag on their bumper sticker.
I do believe you are confusing the USA with England. We do not have an official "Church of the United States of America" and our President is not the "Defender of the Faith".
So if the kids all say "one nation, under Allah" that's cool with you, then, is it?
CaptainF
The Professional Poster
Hi, I am Ziggy. My parents granted me the freedom to choose my religion or not choose one at all.
Same here for me, thank christ!
To -me- it is. To someone else it can be whatever God they want. It is G-E-N-E-R-I-C.
I just assumed that since about 1981 or so, most conservatives thought it meant Reagan.
CaptainF
The Professional Poster
Sweet, count me in dude.
CaptainF
The Professional Poster
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Somehow I don't think they were referring to Thor when they added that...
Then either you are a liar or a lunatic.
The phrase was put in during the 1950s, by the McCarthy right. No question what god is meant, to anyone not being deliberately disingenuous.
Well of course it probably means the same to the majority of Americans since...ding ding ding...most Americans are Christian. But if a Hindu wants to think for his own personal well being that "under God" refers to Vishnu or Kali or whoever, I really don't care.
You see, we in America we don't dictate what people are allowed to think.
You see, we in America we don't dictate what people are allowed to think.
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