pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America

[BasketCase]

See, folks, this isn't really about human rights at all. Never was. The Pledge of Allegiance represents a political agenda. Loyalty to a set of ideas. I think you all know which ideas those are, and I know that just about all of you consider those ideas good ones. People don't want the Pledge taken out of our schools for human rights reasons--they want it taken out of our schools because the agenda represented by the Pledge gets in the way of their own agendas, whatever those may be.

 

[JollyRoger]

Dude--I already covered this--children do not have that freedom.

When you've got a kid and you find the television set smashed into pieces, and your kid's baseball INSIDE the picture tube, you're going to grab your kid by the ear, march him right up to the TV set, and demand to know what happened.

Freedom of speech isn't gonna be on your mind. You're going to demand an explanation from your kid. The first time that happens, think of me. I'll be standing right there in spirit, grinning at you and saying "tolja so!"

Are you going to make him say the Pledge as punishment? You say the flag represents freedom, but then say kids don't have freedom. Why the need to make the pledge to something that respresents what they don't have?

 

[BasketCase]

Same reason the school teaches them math and geography and history when they don't need it.

Because they will need it when they grow up.

 

[GenMarshall]

Well until recently, children were FORCED to recite the pledge of allegiance or risk getting punished with a visit to the principal or vice principal (Detention for the Middle School and High Schoolers).

 

[BasketCase]

Yeah, I know, I was one of those kids. We were also FORCED to keep our hands off the girls. Or--you guessed it--principal's office.

Also no messing around with knives or guns at school, and a bunch of other rules you should already be familiar with.


Nobody seems to care about any of those other freedoms that get taken away from kids. Just this particular one. Proving (as I already said) that it's not really rights you're concerned with.

What is it really?

 

[Trajan12]

How exactly.People get it int heir heads that they need to defend the idea of America, and not understanding the basic ideals of the country they decide to defend it in ways that go against what America stands for. Such is the danger of nationalism.



It is a logical fallacy to assume that someone who says the pledge is someone who is 'blindly devoted' to the nation. Stating the pledge isnt signing a contract in blood to do the states bidding no matter what - and frankly its really idiotic to paint people who simply believe in saying the pledge as a show of respect for the nation as raving fanatics.

I never said that all people who take the pledge are blindly devoted. I'm just stating the dangers of pledging while being blindly devoted and making the claim that they far outweigh the dangers of just not pledging at all.

Dont forget its also because your real tough too and you like giving to 'the man' whenver you can.

/sheesh.

No, I'm actually pretty much at peace with the establishment. I just don't think the establishment should be so untrusting as to expect me to reinforce that peace at every twist and turn.


I didnt realize that being 'unmotivated' was such a positive in life. I'm motivated for lots of things! There's education, music, socializing, sports, patriotism just doesn't rank up there. Thus I am unmotivated to be a patriot.

I don't know why I hadn't stolen Skad's idea earlier!

 

[warpus]

And you accuse me of using strawmen?

I don't think that word means what you think it does..

 

[Berzerker]

BC

Dude--I already covered this--children do not have that freedom.

Dude, do parents have the freedom to raise their kids with or without a religion (or the state's god)? And you're wrong, there is nothing in the 1st Amendment or any other part of the Constitution that says minors dont have rights. "Person" includes children...

 

[MobBoss]

People get it int heir heads that they need to defend the idea of America, and not understanding the basic ideals of the country they decide to defend it in ways that go against what America stands for. Such is the danger of nationalism.

Can you point me to an example where a regular joe pledge sayer has done this?

I never said that all people who take the pledge are blindly devoted. I'm just stating the dangers of pledging while being blindly devoted and making the claim that they far outweigh the dangers of just not pledging at all.

I am simply going to have to disagree with you there.

No, I'm actually pretty much at peace with the establishment. I just don't think the establishment should be so untrusting as to expect me to reinforce that peace at every twist and turn.

Funny that you think its generated by a feeling of mistrust. It isnt. As I have pointed out its a statement of respect for what others have done for our nation and a belief in an ideal that America stands for. Quite harmless actually.

 

[MobBoss]

Dude, do parents have the freedom to raise their kids with or without a religion (or the state's god)? And you're wrong, there is nothing in the 1st Amendment or any other part of the Constitution that says minors dont have rights. "Person" includes children...

Come on. Kids dont have the same rights. They cant give consent. Their rights are hindered in many other ways legally as well. More limits on their freedom of speech while in school for example.

They dont come into their own until age 18 when they legally become an adult.

And I really want you to continue arguing that kids have the same rights as adults because you will get owned in that arguement. So by all means continue.

 

[Berzerker]

Come on. Kids dont have the same rights. They cant give consent. Their rights are hindered in many other ways legally as well. More limits on their freedom of speech while in school for example.

Interesting... They cant give consent... But they can pledge their allegiance to the state's god?

I dont have freedom of speech in a public school, so what? But kids do have the same rights as adults, unless you've found something in the Constitution that says they aint really persons (I suggest a re-reading of the 14th Amendment will help). But what does that have to do with their religious freedom and the religious freedom of their parents? You're violating their religious freedom with the pledge.

They dont come into their own until age 18 when they legally become an adult.

Is that in the Constitution? No, age of consent (varies) is the domain of the states and always has been - not the Feds' business. And you're confusing parental rights with the powers of Congress, children have the same rights as adults against Congress, not against their own parents.

And I really want you to continue arguing that kids have the same rights as adults because you will get owned in that arguement. So by all means continue.

Fine with me, let me know where in the Constitution you found out that children are excluded from the Bill of Rights.

 

[holy king]

do people who discuss quantum mechanics from time to time have fun?

 

[I'm Cleo!]

BasketCase,

You keep using this word, "Freedom of Speech." I do not think it means what you think it means.

Is anyone arguing that people shouldn't be permitted to say the pledge? No. Maybe to take out the "under God" part, for which those people have advanced at least a colorable argument, but not to forbid the pledge. So who are all these people you claim to have proven are opposed to "liberty and justice for all"? I don't get it. My point all along has only been that requiring children to pledge allegiance to the state is a violation of the "liberty and justice for all" in the pledge itself! The government making people say that they're loyal offends the whole concept of freedom of speech, where conscience is supposed to be free from government compulsion. This is America, BasketCase, the government should have to pledge allegiance to us!

Re: freedom of speech, kids have some rights, and don't have others. One right they do have is not to be compelled to pledge allegiance to the country. Additionally, your analogy of the kid explaining something to his parent is off the mark -- the child doesn't lack the "right to remain silent" with respect to his parents because he's a kid, he doesn't have that right because nobody has that right. But the kid does have a "right to remain silent" when the cops interrogate him. Like everyone else.

Cleo

 

[MobBoss]

Interesting... They cant give consent... But they can pledge their allegiance to the state's god?

The flag isnt a god Berzerker. Your wheels are starting to pop off your bus, yo.

I dont have freedom of speech in a public school, so what? But kids do have the same rights as adults, unless you've found something in the Constitution that says they aint really persons (I suggest a re-reading of the 14th Amendment will help). But what does that have to do with their religious freedom and the religious freedom of their parents? You're violating their religious freedom with the pledge.

No your not, mainly because the pledge isnt religious specific. Btw, show me the child that has the right to choose their religious freedom. Seems to me parents dictate this, not the kids.

Is that in the Constitution? No

Well, actually yes, in that the constitution allows for the law of the land to be established. I mention 18 as a general because that is the federal voting age and the minimum age at which a child can then receive an inheritance without a trust.

Fine with me, let me know where in the Constitution you found out that children are excluded from the Bill of Rights.

Doesnt matter in practical application. But thats for practical people I suppose.

 

[JollyRoger]

Come on. Kids dont have the same rights. They cant give consent.

So that makes them giving a pledge even more superficial.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Btw, show me the child that has the right to choose their religious freedom. Seems to me parents dictate this, not the kids.

Hi, I am Ziggy. My parents granted me the freedom to choose my religion or not choose one at all.

 

[MobBoss]

Hi, I am Ziggy. My parents granted me the freedom to choose my religion or not choose one at all.

No comment.

 

[Swedishguy]

See, folks, this isn't really about human rights at all. Never was. The Pledge of Allegiance represents a political agenda. Loyalty to a set of ideas. I think you all know which ideas those are, and I know that just about all of you consider those ideas good ones. People don't want the Pledge taken out of our schools for human rights reasons--they want it taken out of our schools because the agenda represented by the Pledge gets in the way of their own agendas, whatever those may be.

Oh, please. What the hell do you think will happen if the pledge removed? Seriously? America will be overrun by communists and terrorists? Answer me!

 

[Cu Chulainn]

Of course a kids "rights" regarding the parents are somewhat reduced. However a child's rights vis a vis the state remain unchanged with what few exceptions are specifically spelled out in the law. (voting, drinking, etc)

Coercion to recite a loyalty oath may not be fascist in and of itself but it is certainly authoritarian in some way. My big problem with it is that they're pledging to the wrong thing. It is the Constitution and only the Constitution that is worthy of allegiance in our country. If the Constitution were suspended I would that day burn every flag I own and actively oppose the republic to which children pledge allegiance. I would expect every other true patriot to do the same. An oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic is something I would not object to.

 

[bhsup]

My big problem with it is that they're pledging to the wrong thing. It is the Constitution and only the Constitution that is worthy of allegiance in our country. If the Constitution were suspended I would that day burn every flag I own and actively oppose the republic to which children pledge allegiance. I would expect every other true patriot to do the same. An oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic is something I would not object to.

How about the land, eh? I was born here, it is my home, and ultimately that is where my loyalty is. While I revere the Constitution, my ultimate loyalty is to my home.