Poland should apologise for starting the Second World War?

[Winner]

Sure they had. It was called the 'Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation'.

HRE =/= modern (1930s) day Germany. The regions inhabited by Sudeten Germans were always parts of Bohemia/Moravia as unified administrative units. The notion that "Sudetenland" was a region was simply totally wrong from the beginning and the Nazis proved it when they just added most of the acquired territories to existing gaus in their Reich.

In 1938, Germany had absolutely no right to demand anything from Czechoslovakia. That said, it had a much better claim on the Corridor/Danzig.

 

[Dachs]

HRE =/= modern (1930s) day Germany.

So Austria oughtn't have been a target either? Cause, you know, I think you're missing the point, probably deliberately.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

And even the Sudeten German regions had never been a part of Germany before, yet it mattered little to Nazis and their ideology and also to the idiots in Britain and France.

Hitler made his plans for Czechoslovakia clear whole years before the war - he spoke of one unified German bloc in Central Europe, and when you look at the map, you see that the Czech-inhabited lands kinda spoil the picture. He made it clear he wanted to destroy Czechoslovakia, which makes the magnitude of Britain's folly even harder to comprehend.

Sudetenland was a part of Austria-Hungary before the war, so it could be included in GrossDeutschland, but it was never part of the Reich, no.

Something often forgotten is the scattered ethnic and linguistic Germans throughout Hungary, Romania, and what was Czechoslovakia. This was undoubtedly among his "excuses" in taking those lands, to reunite all Germans in Europe.

 

[Winner]

So Austria oughtn't have been a target either? Cause, you know, I think you're missing the point, probably deliberately.

That might makes right or that the Nazis managed to fool the world using purely ethnic arguments trumping common sense?

HRE for most of its history was just a zombie of a failed feudal state which finally died when Napoleon gave Europe a lesson in modern-day nationalism. Modern day Germany had nothing to do with it, just as modern-day Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Czechoslovakia or anybody else.

 

[Winner]

Sudetenland was a part of Austria-Hungary before the war, so it could be included in GrossDeutschland, but it was never part of the Reich, no.

Something often forgotten is the scattered ethnic and linguistic Germans throughout Hungary, Romania, and what was Czechoslovakia. This was undoubtedly among his "excuses" in taking those lands, to reunite all Germans in Europe.

This was the excuse for occupation of rump Czecho-Slovakia (yes, with the dash) and creation of the Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia - "protection" of the remaining Germans in the Czech lands.

 

[Dachs]

That might makes right or that the Nazis managed to fool the world using purely ethnic arguments trumping common sense?

So political/territorial irredentism is valid, and ethnic irredentism isn't?

HRE for most of its history was just a zombie of a failed feudal state which finally died when Napoleon gave Europe a lesson in modern-day nationalism. Modern day Germany had nothing to do with it, just as modern-day Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Czechoslovakia or anybody else.

That's not the point.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

In 1938, Germany had absolutely no right to demand anything from Czechoslovakia. That said, it had a much better claim on the Corridor/Danzig.

Don't you forget the right of self-determination introduced by Woodrow Wilson? As far as I know this principle was still very real at the time and hence gave Germany any legimitation necessary.
It is this right which can also be perceived as the main cause for the widespread sympathy for the German demands.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I believe the last one was thinking about the letter of polish bishops. Perhaps they've ment that when they've said "sorry". But we don't know that, and it wasn't an official stance of a polish state. In fact, Gomulka was furious about the letter.
So no, Poland has never apologised for the expulsions, and it never will, and it should not.

I see, thanks for the explanation.
And why do you think Poland should not apologise? Aside from all kinds of moral arguments I see something very practical to be gained by an apology.

Poland has a really bad image problem. I mean just look at this board ... no tough task at all to find something ridiculing around here. There are different reasons for it. But one is this impression of endless whining on the Polish side. Now if you were to stand up, face the world and speak out an honest apology - no crawling in the dust, an simple accordance regarding the wrong that was done - Poland would have a chance to negate this impression.

 

[Winner]

My long reply to you just got eaten by a connection failure

 

[REDY]

Don't you forget the right of self-determination introduced by Woodrow Wilson? As far as I know this principle was still very real at the time and hence gave Germany any legimitation necessary.
It is this right which can also be perceived as the main cause for the widespread sympathy for the German demands.

I agree with you, that was important argument. However widespread sympathy was made more by propaganda and fear than rational argumenting.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Well what public opinion isn't shaped by propaganda

@Winner Oh I know that feeling very well. If I just think of those evil little buttons at my mouse which let the browser switch backwards

 

[SlowThinker]

It seems debaters missed the main point of the Kovalyov's article.
The point was not history, but future. After annexation of a part of Georgia, Russia would like to propound "moderate demands" towards other neighbours.
The article (first published on the official pages, then withdrawn) was a standard Russian procedure of a semi-official statement. Similarly the nuclear threats against Poland and Czechia in 2008 (related to the U.S. anti-missile system) were pronounced not by Russian foreign office, but by a Russian general.
I wonder whether these semi-official procedures should serve as a test of the international reaction, or to intimidate neighbours or to mobilize expansionists in Russia...

 

[REDY]

...

For these who have some experience with Russian policy its hardly topic, thats why it was hijacked. We need some haters of Poles who would give it some spice

 

[red_elk]

It seems debaters missed the main point of the Kovalyov's article.
The point was not history, but future. After annexation of a part of Georgia, Russia would like to propound "moderate demands" towards other neighbours.
The article (first published on the official pages, then withdrawn) was a standard Russian procedure of a semi-official statement. Similarly the nuclear threats against Poland and Czechia in 2008 (related to the U.S. anti-missile system) were pronounced not by Russian foreign office, but by a Russian general.
I wonder whether these procedures should serve as a test of the international reaction, to intimidate neighbours or to mobilize expansionists in Russia...

Exactly. They will say something like "See? We are doing the same modest demands as Hitler did. We have rights to invade too!"

To be compared with Hitler - is what everybody are dreaming about.

 

[Patroklos]

Stalin mad the comparison inevitable and accurate a LONG time ago

 

[warpus]

And why do you think Poland should not apologise? Aside from all kinds of moral arguments I see something very practical to be gained by an apology.

Because it was not our decision - we were not responsible for what happened.

Poland has a really bad image problem. I mean just look at this board ... no tough task at all to find something ridiculing around here. There are different reasons for it. But one is this impression of endless whining on the Polish side. Now if you were to stand up, face the world and speak out an honest apology - no crawling in the dust, an simple accordance regarding the wrong that was done - Poland would have a chance to negate this impression.

You think Poland has a bad image problem, based on what you see on an internet forum?

 

[red_elk]

Stalin mad the comparison inevitable and accurate a LONG time ago

For propagandists and idiots - undoubtedly.

 

[Patroklos]

Stalin, what a great guy!

 

[Terxpahseyton]

You think Poland has a bad image problem, based on what you see on an internet forum?

If u wish to delude yourself - go ahead. Who am I to stop you. But there are quite enough other examples than this board.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

You think Poland has a bad image problem, based on what you see on an internet forum?

Oh, come on. You have a huge image problem, calling someone a Pole is basically an insult in western Europe. Perhaps Albania has a worse reputation, but thats it.