Political Philosophy discussion

[DC0]

Nothing's so bad as a person not having to work to survive huh? Is THAT why the right also doesn't want to allow women to make decisions that would limit population overgrowth, poverty, and a tradition of dependency?

Bit of left wing paranoia there is all I read.
Yeah. This game can be played both ways.

Being alive and knowing one is mortal is what motivates a person to make an impact in the world with what they bring to the table for their society in life. I do get that too many people don't understand what sacrifices are made for them nor have nearly enough of a concept of appreciation for an actual utopia to thrive usually. Still, on the other side of the coin, being able to do nothing but jump from min wage job to min wage job when you could've been a GREAT author, inventor, writer, coder had you simply been left to your own devices, is also common in our society and we've killed a lot of what could've been given to the community by people doing what they were more naturally inclined to do rather than simply what they were forced into by circumstances. Very few are financially free enough to be able to do what they are actually here for.

I AM DELIGHTED, and I mean it, to read all those good sounding words. It is good to know that you support our mutual efforts to bring all the good into this world and to shy away everything bad from it at the same time.

Everything is wrong with charity being a tax write off.

This is the reason why you should keep any state our of charity.
There a good old Georgian (Country Georgia, the one in Caucasus Mountains) saying: "Do good and throw it into water." Meaning "Good deeds must be done discreetly".

Generally in the US when we're talking Socialism, we simply mean

World have had a common definition of Socialism for since the term was invented. So please use commonly used definition. It helps to stay on topic. Really.

And while you in USA are at it, start using metric system (SI) already!

So yes, Sweden is both capitalist and socialist and are a much better balance of the two.

Well, confirmation bias is such as it is. Oblivious even to obvious truth.

I have had a few of my own but wouldn't want to harm society with them either.

Like about your own fairy-tale socialism?

without a core knowledge base being shared to all, you will quickly get people believing all sorts of crazy crap.

Like americans landed on the moon?

You think the 'flat earthers' came from formal education or private?

I bet majority of them, like 99%, have had only formal education. I would also be genuinly surprised to learn they can write correctly.

Like how it's obvious that a book that tells you it is itself the words of a deity written by the hands of men and interpreted by other men is to be taken as a literal guide to how to live despite its thousands of noted self-contradictions is to be believed to be exactly what it says it is?

Apparently - as a lie it is. Are you sure we won't be banned for discussing Quran here?

I also understand that the truth is eventually made quite 'obvious' to us upon our deaths and only a few get to see how obvious it is before then

You didn't read what I wrote. Alright.

Sorry but on all this all I hear is, "People, People! You haven't fed on the propaganda I've fed on yet". Maybe I'm wrong. It really is impossible to know

Definitely. Didn't read. Haven't watched movies.

I've come to feel that the UN is generally a force for trying to ensure peace exists in the world, not a spearhead effort to make sure everyone becomes a servant 'bot' to higher masters.

And did no research.
Well, you can't save them all

 

[Pepo]

Oh, you probably mean such prominent western philisophers like St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, or St. Augustine, right? No? Oh, my bad.

Problem is: a person can't be material and moral.
Just cannot! It's the eternal phylosophical debate! And it has always concluded in "There must be God if you want morality to exist". Just learn your philosophy already.

Marxism is 100% material. And very, very immoral.


Would you please elaborate on why you don't agree with the theory of marxism?
And a couple of examples where Marx was "misunderstood"?

I disagree with the statement that materialism can't be moral, but in reference as to why I disagree with Marx is mainly due to his characterization that the human esence is one work. The whole philosophical system rest in this assumption, yet I can't get behind it. For me human esence is what we can call the spirit, in Hegel terms, as the form in which do we understand the world in a historical timeframe. There are many other aspects in which I disagree with Marx , such as the dialectical class society or his economic theory, but I do think it deserves credit for his critique of the society of the time.

As for how Marx is misunderstood there are many examples. For starters, he wasn't a relativist or a person without moral; quite the opposite in fact. In Das Kapital you can read how he oppose the work of women in factories, because in his view, it goes against the natural order by making woman behave like men (his companion Engel was much more progressive in this regard). Another example is in how the communist revolution would happen, which was quite different as to how it was developed by Lenin with his idea of a vanguard party. Even statements like "religion is the opium of the masses" need to be placed in a context: If you think that the esence of humanity is work, you will be opposed to anyone who promises otherworldly salvation. That's what alienation means: to separate a person from his true self. In your case for example, anyone who doesn't believe in a one true god is alienated, because he denies his/her true self.

That's why I say that one need to be aware of the narrative. Most things in life are very complicated matters, and while it is impossible to know anything absolutely, I believe that we should strive to form our own knowledge of it, instead of purely relying on others people narrative. Conversation is necessary and fundamental, but for me what matters at the end of the day is that one reachs is own conclusions, by his unique way of view.

 

[Thunderbrd]

World have had a common definition of Socialism for since the term was invented. So please use commonly used definition. It helps to stay on topic. Really.

Basically, when business is run by the government.

 

[DC0]

since we have come to rely on loans for regular payrolls for so many and for so many of us our money is sitting in a bank as a way to protect it from theft, I beg to differ. You take the banks away, you collapse our entire world system at this point. Like any other tech, we are completely reliant on their stability now.

Book: "The Creature from Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve".
Video: "End of the Road - How Money Became Worthless".
Video: "Century of Enslavement: The History of The Federal Reserve" by corbettreport.
Video: "The American Dream By The Provocateur Network".

These are not for you. I know you'll skip
I have a Master's degree in economics from one of the most prominent Moscow Universities. And I attest what they say in these videos and in the book is truth.

Kill the Electoral College without mercy, hell possibly even ban parties as a system if we can.

In the way I support socialism

Dude! I don't care how you support your IMAGINARY socialism.
There is a definition to socialism all grown-ups use. To stay on topic.
Would you please be so kind to use the same definition?

It's a safety net to ensure that the scourge of poverty doesn't lead to people freezing to death on the streets and is so poorly underfunded that people still are.

1) Among all USA states, which has the largest number of homeless people?
2) Which has the most number of people relying on welfare?
3) Which has both, relying on welfare and at the same time freezing to death on the streets?
I know. While living in Russia. Do you?

There's really no such thing as 'just taking advantage of the system'. If that's what you're doing, you're still making the system stronger as a whole by being a healthy buying consumer

If you are 'just taking advantage of the system', you are:
1) Lying.
2) Stealing.
Both are sins.
See? A person has to be religious to be moral.

 

[DC0]

View attachment 585909
Basically, when business is run by the government.

Wow. I'm impressed.
Would you agree that actual definition is very different from your understanding of your imaginary socialism?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Wow. I'm impressed.
Would you agree that actual definition is very different from your understanding of your imaginary socialism?

I would agree that nobody agrees on the definition. It suits whatever they want it to.

 

[Thunderbrd]

1) Among all USA states, which has the largest number of homeless people?

The ones which have the most temperate climates so they can survive the easiest there.

2) Which has the most number of people relying on welfare?

The ones with the highest populations.

3) Which has both, relying on welfare and at the same time freezing to death on the streets?

The ones that are too cold to survive in the winter.

I know you're pointing to California, New York, Washington, Oregon. Of course, when you're like us here in NV, or where I was in Idaho, you just make sure people are paid as minimum wage crap as possible and fine them when you find them homeless so they move on to places that care if you live or die despite your poverty level.

1) Lying.
2) Stealing.

How are you lying and stealing if the system is giving to you based on your circumstances? Nothing about that requires that you lie OR steal.

I have a Master's degree in economics from one of the most prominent Moscow Universities. And I attest what they say in these videos and in the book is truth.

I'm really not impressed by degrees because they can teach whatever higher conditioning they want to in universities as well as anywhere else but OK. I'm not an advocate of the Fed Reserve. I understand how globalist finances work and what the Rothechilds are up to. I'd prefer they win over the Russian oligarchs and Trumps of the world who want to overthrow the noose closing in on their necks purely because it's an inconvenience to their collection of power rather than because they care a rat about managing the wellbeing of the public.

 

[Esfera]

Bit of left wing paranoia there is all I read.
Yeah. This game can be played both ways.


I AM DELIGHTED, and I mean it, to read all those good sounding words. It is good to know that you support our mutual efforts to bring all the good into this world and to shy away everything bad from it at the same time.


This is the reason why you should keep any state our of charity.
There a good old Georgian (Country Georgia, the one in Caucasus Mountains) saying: "Do good and throw it into water." Meaning "Good deeds must be done discreetly".


World have had a common definition of Socialism for since the term was invented. So please use commonly used definition. It helps to stay on topic. Really.

And while you in USA are at it, start using metric system (SI) already!


Well, confirmation bias is such as it is. Oblivious even to obvious truth.


Like about your own fairy-tale socialism?


Like americans landed on the moon?


I bet majority of them, like 99%, have had only formal education. I would also be genuinly surprised to learn they can write correctly.


Apparently - as a lie it is. Are you sure we won't be banned for discussing Quran here?


You didn't read what I wrote. Alright.


Definitely. Didn't read. Haven't watched movies.


And did no research.
Well, you can't save them all

I find it amusing that you believe yourself to be superior to flat-earthers while simultaneously believing in the validity of the moon landing conspiracy theory

"Well, you can't save them all"
I agree, and I actually think that you are one of the individuals that can't be saved, like most of your countrymen, assets of the new tzar, Putin, and the new Rasputin, Dugin.

"Apparently - as a lie it is. Are you sure we won't be banned for discussing Quran here?"
I really don't understand this victimhood mindset that so many Christians, especially Orthodox Christians, have with regards to Islam, like you're any better than muslims in aspects like freedom of speech, something that Russia isn't precisely known for either.

Also, the smileys are really an eye sore and passive-aggresiveness doesn't make you look smarter.

 

[Joij21]

I don't want to know what you do in your games
In my games I'm trying to create a good country and live in peace with everybody. Until there is no room to expand

My games would be peaceful if not for the AI.

But even if the AI is not warmongering, they can also easily mismanage their cities and cause crime, disease, and instability to rise. Civil wars become rampant, plagues spread. If not that then random events can cause volcanoes to erupt, tornadoes, and locusts to destroy tile improvements. Oh, or dangerous wild animals just gobble up all those scouts and wanderers in the early game.

Man... Really?

In order to be able to feel, one must have senses.
If one has senses, he is able to experience a range of feelings. Ranging from "bad" to "good". And it is subjective!
And yes, it correctly assumes, that if a person never had "objectively bad" experience, he would consider "objectively minor good" experience as "subjectively bad". Simply because he ONLY has better experiences to compare it to.
Hense "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche".
So yes, one has to suffer to be able to be happy.

So I guess God fully endorses CBT.

 

[DC0]

moon landing conspiracy theory

Meaning what exactly? Americans DID land on the Moon or DID NOT?

I meant Americans DID NOT land on the moon. See "American Moon" (deleted from YouTube). It is so far the most comprehensive research on the subject made as a video.

and the new Rasputin, Dugin

Who is Dugin?
Ignore that. I performed a search.
Thank you. I have had a good laugh. In Russia nobody knows who Dugin is. But it's a good thing to know that "our Western partners" keep a close eye and carefully catalogue each and every weirdo who ever shows up in the vicinity of Putin

I really don't understand this victimhood mindset that so many Christians, especially Orthodox Christians, have with regards to Islam

Victimhood?
It's just helps to know your enemy. And they are not enemy to me. Nowhere Bible says islam should be subdued.
I am enemy to them, according to teachings of Quran. Quran says in several verses that all non-muslims must pay Jizyah and feel themselves subdued.
BTW, non-muslims include atheists. Or agnostics. In fact, in Islam atheist/agnostic stands lower than Person of the Book (Christian). Right. This is why "victim" flashes into your mind when you read "Islam"

So I guess God fully endorses CBT

CBT stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy?
I don't know, man. Apparently, you know much more about God than I do.

 

[DC0]

I know you're pointing to California

Correct. California ONLY. It is in fact the largest holder of "people freezing to death in the streets". And at the same time a state with highest expenses for homeless shelters and housing for homeless. Funny how it works?

How are you lying and stealing if the system is giving to you based on your circumstances?

We were talking about "taking advantage of the system". If my English is good enough, "taking avantage of something or someone" is gaining results you want using unfair means.
From my previous writings it is obvious that I'm writing about abusing welfare system by single mothers exploiting their children specifically for purpose of abusing the welfare system.
So yes. It involves lying to, and stealing from your fellow citizens, who have to take away from their children to pay taxes into the system, which is being abused.

I understand how globalist finances work and what the Rothechilds are up to

Care to share with us?

I'd prefer they win over the Russian oligarchs

Ignore my line above. I was openly mocking you.
Apparently, you know nothing about Rothschilds or Rockefellers or other banksters. Because if you knew, you would never write that propaganda piece about "russian oligarchs".
"Russian oligarchs" in fact are just nominal holders of everthyng stolen from ex-USSR when it was destroyed by certain group of people.
They hold for? Guess

 

[Joij21]

CBT stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy?
I don't know, man. Apparently, you know much more about God than I do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cock_and_ball_torture

 

[DC0]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cock_and_ball_torture

Wow. Sir, are you a person of the broad spectrum of interest. I hereby stand humbled. I never heard of that before.

 

[raxo2222]

Meaning what exactly? Americans DID land on the Moon or DID NOT?

I meant Americans DID NOT land on the moon. See "American Moon" (deleted from YouTube). It is so far the most comprehensive research on the subject made as a video.

So you are conspiracy theorist then.
USSR would happily point, that Americans didn't land on Moon.
Hopefully you don't believe, that climate change, covid19 and worsening inequality are hoaxes...

Why religious/spiritualists believe in conspiracy theories? Just curious.
Whatever makes God and religious/spiritual stuff real also allows wildest conspiracy theories I guess.

This is why I want secular state - spirituality and religion makes you more prone to conspiracy theories, since you already believe in something out there.

Conspiracy theorists are like boy, who cried "Wolf!"
Wolf isn't there, but there could be other dangers.
When Wolf attacked no one came to help conspiracy theorists.
Either they ended up in Mad Max wasteland, or Cyberpunk dystopia.

 

[Pepo]

So you are conspiracy theorist then.
USSR would happily point, that Americans didn't land on Moon.
Hopefully you don't believe, that climate change, covid19 and worsening inequality are hoaxes...

Why religious/spiritualists believe in conspiracy theories? Just curious.
Whatever makes God and religious/spiritual stuff real also allows wildest conspiracy theories I guess.

This is why I want secular state - spirituality and religion makes you more prone to conspiracy theories, since you already believe in something out there.

Conspiracy theorists are like boy, who cried "Wolf!"
Wolf isn't there, but there could be other dangers.
When Wolf attacked no one came to help conspiracy theorists.
Either they ended up in Mad Max wasteland, or Cyberpunk dystopia.

Seculars societies are not free from belief either, it's there on a different form. Believe or faith, whatever name you want to use, is something inherent as to the way we know the world. Put it simple, every person believes in something that can't be universally true.

 

[Joij21]

Seculars societies are not free from belief either, it's there on a different form. Believe or faith, whatever name you want to use, is something inherent as to the way we know the world. Put it simple, every person believes in something that can't be universally true.

True, but you have to remember almost all radical Christians I've heard from just make up conspiracy theories to justify their beliefs in the face of constantly being disproved.

Yes secular people are capable of this as well, but the conspiracy theories I hear from them are never as batsh!t crazy as the radical Christians.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Correct. California ONLY. It is in fact the largest holder of "people freezing to death in the streets". And at the same time a state with highest expenses for homeless shelters and housing for homeless. Funny how it works?

Sure, people figure out where there are services to help them when they are desperate and gravitate there. It's not like state lines have walls. Shelters are crowded and the weather is usually pretty good and there are numerous tent villages set aside for them. Housing prices are skyrocketed into orbit and thus many cannot afford rentals even when they work full time. Sure, min wage is a little higher but the state has so many economic powerhouse companies that pay so much higher than the rest of the nation that housing costs have become what they are. It's problematic that the wealth gap is extremely high there, but it seems to be on a recovery track as more wealthy people are moving out, though that will eventually bring a collapse and correction in the housing market there that will perhaps make it possible for normal people to rent and own there again.

We were talking about "taking advantage of the system". If my English is good enough, "taking avantage of something or someone" is gaining results you want using unfair means.

That's sometimes but not always what is meant by 'taking advantage of'. Taking advantage of can also mean simply accepting what's been given and not turning it away. If a person is taking advantage of the system as it is established, it can mean, quite innocently, benefitting as intended. It does NOT necessarily mean any kind of unfairness was employed. The idea that people who simply try WILL succeed is... well it's simply not rooted in reality here in this modern era where the cost of living is beginning to exceed what is often possible to earn in a lifetime, meaning the value of human labor as a commodity is beginning to be devalued by automation and efficiency improvements so much that only a small % can make what is required of them to uphold all the debts incurred by housing, food, and healthcare. One may argue that these people who are in this problem simply need to educate themselves, and yes, that can be an answer, however, not all are capable mentally nor psychologically, and education costs at a minimum time with access to that educating source and educating sources often are prohibitive in costs to someone already in the red who cannot afford enough to eat and have a roof over their heads. And the time is usually prohibitive since even that is spent in labor as often as one can so as to make at least a little headway towards trying to escape the endless ant trap of a budget deficit. It is for this reason that people are or become dependent upon the state and it is due to a massive and growing wealth gap that this takes place and it is a result of wealth using its power to rewrite policy that law is failing to keep this from happening. Yet here, we blame the party that wants to give people a security net before they splat against the concrete of failure as if they MADE the problem, when the reality is, letting the extremely wealthy get all the tax breaks while selling the lie that trickle down economics and an unregulated free market works to create wealth and opportunity for all, promoting the idea that taxation is theft, is what has ACTUALLY created the problem. We have allowed the wealthy to steamroll the rest of the population, and Civ power dynamics is the easiest way to see how this model works in practice.

"Russian oligarchs" in fact are just nominal holders of everthyng stolen from ex-USSR when it was destroyed by certain group of people.

lol... they failed to hold everything together under Communism and bad state decisions, particularly blunting their swords against the Afghanis. Poor them.

 

[Pepo]

True, but you have to remember almost all radical Christians I've heard from just make up conspiracy theories to justify their beliefs in the face of constantly being disproved.

Yes secular people are capable of this as well, but the conspiracy theories I hear from them are never as batsh!t crazy as the radical Christians.

A few years ago I would have agree, but from my experience religious backgrounds doesn't make people more pre-disposed to positions I consider insane. Anti-vaxxers for example come from both rigth and left. I imagine it depends a lot on the context as well, I imagine the US is different in this regard from Europe despite his hegemonic cultural presence.

And just to be clear, my position is quite oppose to this kind of fundamentalist that claim they posses a universal truth in the form of god. But, while being an atheist myself, I do reject the grand narrative of modernity bringing the light to civilization and banishing it's shadows. I can't simply get behind the idea that rationality is in some way superior from the religious worldview, when in itself it also require belief (and a lot of it). I don't think that spirituality , or in another interpretation, idealism, can't be separated from what we understand as humanity.

 

[jatkinson]

In my experience there are far more anti-vaxxers and other medicine deniers on the right than on the left. Don't confuse skeptism of corporations with actual science denial.

 

[Joij21]

when in itself it also require belief (and a lot of it).

How so? Rationality is far more provable than any god. What kind of belief is necessary to believe in that?