[RD] Poll: Is the United States under active assault by an attempted fascist takeover?

[Hygro]

Alright show of hands

 

[amadeus]

Are the executive powers exercised today any more severe than they were under FDR? We had a republic after him, and so too we will after Trump.

 

[Cutlass]

Are the executive powers exercised today any more severe than they were under FDR? We had a republic after him, and so too we will after Trump.

Yes. It's not even comparable.

 

[amadeus]

Yes. It's not even comparable.

Internment, including of American citizens, would be the biggest one, perhaps followed by the seizure of private gold reserves. I’d also add the long-forgotten seizure of Montgomery Ward, federal agents literally dragging the President of the company out of his office.

What has Trump done that compares?

 

[innonimatu]

Can't agree with any of those.

It's the libertarians (stupid pro-oligarch liberals) doing their thing. They always fail, but their thing is wrecking state capability and that is the opposite of what fascists did. Fascists took over the state and tried to organize all life around it.

 

[Angst]

actual libertarians don't like the government disappearing people, and they don't like speech control. most people that identify with libertarianism in the us are fascist though. so in that sense, it checks both boxes.

Internment, including of American citizens, would be the biggest one, perhaps followed by the seizure of private gold reserves. I’d also add the long-forgotten seizure of Montgomery Ward, federal agents literally dragging the President of the company out of his office.

What has Trump done that compares?

on montgomery ward, i looked it up on wiki, and

In April 1944, four months into a nationwide strike by the company's 12,000 workers, U.S. Army troops seized the company's Chicago offices. The action was ordered due to Avery's refusal to settle the strike as requested by the Franklin D. Roosevelt administration, concerned about the adverse effect on the delivery of goods in wartime.

Avery had refused to comply with a War Labor Board order to recognize the unions and institute the terms of a collective bargaining agreement. Eight months later, with Montgomery Ward continuing to refuse to recognize the unions, President Roosevelt issued an executive order seizing all of Montgomery Ward's property nationwide, citing the War Labor Disputes Act as well as his power under the Constitution as commander-in-chief. In 1945, President Harry S. Truman ended the seizure and the Supreme Court dismissed the pending appeal as moot.

so this was actually a wartime thing, which is where a lot of this kind of stuff just happens when a wartime state has malcontents. the us was fighting nazis and this petty idiot didn't want to settle a union problem. as wartime crackdowns go, this is pretty mild. you should've refered to lincoln.

anyways, the us is not currently at war. i don't remember any private seizure (yet), although trump has already harvested a few bucks from private entities through weird settlements and such where people give up instead of letting it go to a packed scotus.

overall, these picks are really strange. trump matches internment, and the two other examples are concerned with private property. there's plenty of executive order abuse historically that doesn't concern itself with private property per se, so this being dragged out as the best counterpoint as a crisis before the continuation of the republic is really strange and seems to point to what kind of government action, abrasive or not, you find abusive.

currently, we're in a situation where a republican-packed scotus (some of which was done under trump) has cleared trump of being able to do criminal action, and it's just last week after two months of chaos that the judicary has half-heartedly pushed back. trump literally usurped the function of congress by deciding, through doge, that he can unilaterally and arbitrarily choose whether the agreed finances are even paid or not. this is why it doesn't compare. trump's actions are on the path to clearing all government branches for functionality, except for the executive; his actions, so far, bypasses congress, and when congress gets to decide, they hand him more power, so they can have less choice, and less power.

as cutlass said, it's not comparable.

so yea mmm. idk man we could make a checklist of trump's actions so far, and each time you can say whether fdr did it or not. i'm not gonna do it though. too tired. it's also like really beside the point. find a peacetime president.

 

[Kaitzilla]

This article talks about the rise of dual systems.

America Is Watching the Rise of a Dual State

For most people, the courts will continue to operate as usual—until they don’t.

www.theatlantic.com

If things go bad, this is how it starts.

 

[GoneFishingX]

With congress approving the continuing resolution they have essentially abandoned the power of the purse. This is a massive check on presidental action. In my opinion that was roughly 2/3rds of the 'Enabling Act of 1933.'

The only system even trying to stop total authoritarianism is the court system and that is being hammered right now. Nothing is comparable to this.

I do think it's also super important to identify that the things his admin are trying to do are obviously horrifying and bad. Even if you want to argue about other times where it could be compared. It's important to consider the end goal. If you break a law to save a life it is totally different than breaking the law to harm/take a life.

We can argue about the morality of the other actions, but it's pretty clear that everything this admin is doing is not moral.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Are the executive powers exercised today any more severe than they were under FDR? We had a republic after him, and so too we will after Trump.

Incredible comment, it's easy for you to say, they're not going after you.

 

[Snowygerry]

Well you seem to have the dictatorial leader, and forcible suppression of opposition, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation, and you have always been a tad militaristic.

But you lack the belief in a natural social hierarchy, and strong regimentation of society or centralized autocracy.

I'd say you are closer to Leopold II than Hitler, closer to America Free State than the 1st North American Empire.

Just imho, too far away to really tell.

 

[Verbose]

Internment, including of American citizens, would be the biggest one, perhaps followed by the seizure of private gold reserves. I’d also add the long-forgotten seizure of Montgomery Ward, federal agents literally dragging the President of the company out of his office.

What has Trump done that compares?

For the current situation in the US to become somehow "normalized" it would take declaring a state of emergency – and that's probably due to going to war.

If Trump tanks the US economy – as is currently set up – maybe he might use that for a state of emergency...?

Well you seem to have the dictatorial leader, and forcible suppression of opposition, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation, and you have always been a tad militaristic.

But you lack the belief in a natural social hierarchy, and strong regimentation of society or centralized autocracy.

I'd say you are closer to Leopold II than Hitler, closer to America Free State than the 1st North American Empire.

Just imho, too far away to really tell.

Caught a pol sci researcher being interviewed the other day making the observation that the Trump admin is not straight up Fascist – they are still trying to work out all its kinks – and the US is only to an extent following the script of an authoritarian take-over, as in some ways it is actually innovating.

The "aristocracy-of-monied-interests", as embodied by Musk, is not traditional Fascist, but consistent with a lot of themes in the US. So the idea of a natural social hoerarchy IS there – who has money, and who has not. It's the supposed signifier of innate natural superiority, as its manifestation. Again, Musk is the obvious exponent.

 

[Snowygerry]

Could be they're just following the well-established script.

The bargain, as Hitler’s underlings explained to the attendees, was this: he had just promised the oligarchs to bring parliamentary democracy to an end, smash the Communist Party, and destroy independent unions. There was to be an election the following month; the capitalists’ part of the deal was to pay up with very large political contributions. It was not a question of should they pay, they must pay; what better return on investment could the captains of industry possibly want?

Fast forward to 2024. In April, Donald Trump met with oil executives at his Mar-a-Lago estate in Floride. After hearing a complaint from one executive about supposedly excessive fossil-fuel regulation, Trump surprised the group with a blunt proposition: raise $1 billion and send him to the White House, and the oil industry will get everything it wants, from a repeal of tailpipe emission regulations to the junking of EV incentives. It would be a “deal” the industry could not pass up.

The American Billionaires Who Fell In Love With Fascism Are Not the First | Common Dreams

The ultra-rich will happily march us into a dictatorship if we let them.

www.commondreams.org

Even Musks attempts to interfere in European politics are not really innovative, even the quotes are interchangeable :

This may account for the love affair between American moguls and fascist dictators. Henry Ford’s admiration for Hitler is well known, and the admiration was mutual. Thomas W. Lamont, the J.P. Morgan Banker who was very influential in government circles, described himself as “something like a missionary” for Italian fascism, regarding the Italian leader as “a very upstanding chap” who had “done a great job in Italy.” In 1938, the very eve of world conflict, Fred Koch, sire of the Koch brothers, built an oil refinery in Nazi Germany precisely when Hitler most needed high-octane fuel for his war machine.

 

[Cutlass]

Internment, including of American citizens, would be the biggest one, perhaps followed by the seizure of private gold reserves. I’d also add the long-forgotten seizure of Montgomery Ward, federal agents literally dragging the President of the company out of his office.

What has Trump done that compares?

FDR was in office 13 years or so. There were a lot of changes in government that happened during that time. Trump has been in office 2 months. Also lots of changes. What's the difference? First, there were actual emergencies during FDR's time, and he worked with Congress on solutions. Some good, some bad. But not unilateral actions, as if Congress and the courts didn't matter. Trump is claiming emergencies that he's making up give himself absolute power to ignore Congress and the courts. He's made himself a 1 man government in ways FDR never considered. FDR pushed boundries, but worked in the system. Trump is just burning the system down. Internment may have been the worst thing FDR did, but there was a war on, there was a lot of hate and racism, and he wasn't the instigator. Trump has no such excuses, except the racism. And he is the instigator.

 

[amadeus]

so this was actually a wartime thing, which is where a lot of this kind of stuff just happens when a wartime state has malcontents. the us was fighting nazis and this petty idiot didn't want to settle a union problem. as wartime crackdowns go, this is pretty mild. you should've refered to lincoln.

I thought of Lincoln as too far removed. I would add the same about John Adams who exercised some powers that would be struck as unconstitutional today, but again, comparing it to the early and fragile republic I think would not hold up.

I would furthermore argue that by 1944 the outcome of the war was not looking good for the Axis, and Montgomery Ward—a department store—would not fall under the purview of production and distribution of necessary war materials. Truman later relinquished control, and then tried the same thing with steel production during the Korean War, only to lose in court.

For the current situation in the US to become somehow "normalized" it would take declaring a state of emergency – and that's probably due to going to war.

It is a good thing that Trump is not pushing us into war.

First, there were actual emergencies during FDR's time, and he worked with Congress on solutions.

I believe the three examples I cited were of executive action without the work of Congress so as to avoid this very criticism.

FDR was in office 13 years or so.

I understand your point but disagree that length of time in office is a relevant factor when we are talking about the powers assumed by the presidency itself and not necessarily one President alone.

 

[Harv]

Alienated Canadian checking in. I don't know how to respond to this one. I am having trouble with the F-word used in the OP and I still believe there are too many differences between the USA of the 2020s and Italy of the 1930s.

I compare him to a cult leader, especially based on how he has the evangelicals behind him. This is the impression I get when I hear rump cultists.

I don't know what his ringleaders want. We are in for four years of chaos. Maybe they want to drive the S&P500 to about 1000 and then sweep in and buy the entire country, kind of like pirates trying to loot a port.

 

[BenitoChavez]

Last time he caused a riot at the capitol trying to get the 2020 election overturned. As for right now, he seems determined to just gut the entire government except for himself and his lackeys. Congress has been impotent. The courts have been the only check on his power. Seems like some sort of takeover to me.

 

[Fippy]

Alienated Canadian checking in. I don't know how to respond to this one. I am having trouble with the F-word used in the OP and I still believe there are too many differences between the USA of the 2020s and Italy of the 1930s.

I compare him to a cult leader, especially based on how he has the evangelicals behind him. This is the impression I get when I hear rump cultists.

I don't know what his ringleaders want. We are in for four years of chaos. Maybe they want to drive the S&P500 to about 1000 and then sweep in and buy the entire country, kind of like pirates trying to loot a port.

Well let's see who his leaders are..
Musk, Bezos (Amazon), Zuckerberg (FB), Pichai (Google) and prolly some i forgot.

The companies behind them are all very similar..
they aim at total market domination, control over their users..and so on.
They have reached a level of being the default pick of most people, even if they don't really like them.

Like you i struggle with accepting Fascist as term here. For now.
Power trip sounds about right, it would reflect everything they stand for.

 

[Angst]

i'm on my phone so am not gonna multiquote - but i want to stress that for those who note there's a difference between eg fascist italy and current usa, this doesn't mean the usa can't be fascist. fascism as a movement is somewhat unique since it's so culturally situated. when italy talks roman empire, america talks Mighty McBillionaire, which is expressed in Musk. nazis used asatru, and eg danish fascists today use calm romanticist photos of fields and beaches.

fascism actually shares a lot of similarities to theocracies as such; that the imagery used and values kept vary wildly, but there are some core functions and distribution of power that can be clocked as theocratic, or fascist. we know from afghanistan that theocracies may ban music, but that doesn't mean that banning music specifically is necessary for something to be theocratic.

 

[Akka]

Too much focus on "fascist", which is mainly used as a whistle and ends up drowning the main subject into semantics and shock tactics.
The US are definitely under assault by an attempted authoritarian takeover, though. Make that an oligarchic/ploutocratic authoritarian takeover. The constant contempt of the law openly displayed by Trump is a pretty good indicator, and the abject and total subservience of the republican apparatus has caused a complete failure of the checks and balance of the whole system.

 

[Birdjaguar]

And Trump wants to "fix it" by being king.