kenneth1221
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2016
- Messages
- 202
While Slater Mill into Industry makes a lot of sense from a flavor perspective, I'm not sure it does from a gameplay situation. Slater Mill's purpose is a boosted factory and free coal. That doesn't really synergize with Industry, and Slater Mill can be an important source of coal for tall empires.
I think that one strategy to both include so many wonders yet also encourage diversification and meaningful choices is to make certain wonders outright exclusive to each other based on class. Mobility and Religion are already two examples. It's not obvious what the others could be. This will let us get around needing increasingly complex and possibly arbitrary geographical/tile restrictions to differentiate cities. Design-wise, the Caveman2Cosmos mod has a bit more leeway since they're trying to to capture the whole of human history instead of being a polished, balanced, and constrained experience like VP.
Also, Millau Viaduct in Autocracy is genuinely odd. It wasn't started until 2001.
Not to be overly reductionist about your post, but including a Chinese location because it represents China becoming westernized is a bit of a yikes for me. 5000 years of unique history, and we want to celebrate embracing the west? In Civ terms, that makes it a wonder that celebrates losing a cultural victory.
Akasaka, however, is different because Japan took the lessons of the west and then promptly fired up a distinctly Japanese war machine.
Regarding the Awe point, to further develop my perspective, I'm going to get up on my soapbox a bit here:
Ancient wonders are kind of easy. Herodotus made a list. But part of how some of these wonders are iconic is that you can call them "Great" and no one bats an eye because everyone knows what you're talking about. Great Lighthouse, Great Library, Great Wall. There's a bit of a "first and therefore best" effect in play here, but arguably wonders should be superlative: oldest, first, longest, bravest, furthest, most central. It's why Hollywood is a wonder in base Civ, but not Bollywood or Nollywood or the European artistic film industry-- Hollywood is first and biggest and billions of people can imagine the sign.
That's why I'm a little hesitant about Kew Gardens, as well. What separates it from other botanic gardens, the way that the Great Wall is more than just a border wall and the Statue of Liberty is more than just a bronze statue? But that's just my soapbox, and I am well aware that if you focus on the "best" or "first" achievements you'll neglect a lot of places that got stepped on by people with better guns.
Disney could be worth representing in some form, but it might be better as a corporation.
I'll see what I can do, but I can't fully commit. I will start on translating some of these into VP bonuses.
If I might make another suggestion, maybe these could grant a free National Wonder e.g. "Central Terminal", which would be available to all civs and require a train station otherwise, but the World Wonder versions would have a specific effect. However, that would be power creep, so maybe not.
I think that one strategy to both include so many wonders yet also encourage diversification and meaningful choices is to make certain wonders outright exclusive to each other based on class. Mobility and Religion are already two examples. It's not obvious what the others could be. This will let us get around needing increasingly complex and possibly arbitrary geographical/tile restrictions to differentiate cities. Design-wise, the Caveman2Cosmos mod has a bit more leeway since they're trying to to capture the whole of human history instead of being a polished, balanced, and constrained experience like VP.
Also, Millau Viaduct in Autocracy is genuinely odd. It wasn't started until 2001.
Not to be overly reductionist about your post, but including a Chinese location because it represents China becoming westernized is a bit of a yikes for me. 5000 years of unique history, and we want to celebrate embracing the west? In Civ terms, that makes it a wonder that celebrates losing a cultural victory.
Akasaka, however, is different because Japan took the lessons of the west and then promptly fired up a distinctly Japanese war machine.
But every major city has a shopping district that shows off the local flavor and houses local companies. I could more or less replace Akiba in this blurb with "Manhattan" and swap some of the references. It's not about the money. It's about uniqueness.
Regarding the Awe point, to further develop my perspective, I'm going to get up on my soapbox a bit here:
Spoiler SOAPBOX :
Ancient wonders are kind of easy. Herodotus made a list. But part of how some of these wonders are iconic is that you can call them "Great" and no one bats an eye because everyone knows what you're talking about. Great Lighthouse, Great Library, Great Wall. There's a bit of a "first and therefore best" effect in play here, but arguably wonders should be superlative: oldest, first, longest, bravest, furthest, most central. It's why Hollywood is a wonder in base Civ, but not Bollywood or Nollywood or the European artistic film industry-- Hollywood is first and biggest and billions of people can imagine the sign.
That's why I'm a little hesitant about Kew Gardens, as well. What separates it from other botanic gardens, the way that the Great Wall is more than just a border wall and the Statue of Liberty is more than just a bronze statue? But that's just my soapbox, and I am well aware that if you focus on the "best" or "first" achievements you'll neglect a lot of places that got stepped on by people with better guns.
Disney could be worth representing in some form, but it might be better as a corporation.
per 5 
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