[Extension] [POLL] More Wonders for VP

[kenneth1221]

For the modern era, you could try a "Polar Expedition" wonder/project such as the Amundsen Expedition, though that's kind of a return to how Civs 1,2,3,4 conflated wonders and projects. I think this may be necessary, since the existing snow/ice wonders portray a successful conquest of the cold, but before you get there you need the expedition in the first place (although it may work better as a national wonder that unlocks snow/ice booster buildings across the empire?)
It would be part terrain wonder (ice/snow within working range requirement), but crucially also a science victory wonder.

On the other problems you're running into:

The problem with finding non-European industrial wonders is that the Industrial Revolution in Europe didn't go so well for a lot of the rest of the world.

modern era is ruled by USA (3 original and 3 good ones from Infixo are difficult to cut). Still number is really low. Anything?

In all fairness, America has no Ancient, Classical, Medieval, or Renaissance wonders.

More seriously, my point is that the past century has largely been one where America has flexed a lot, and that I wouldn't consider it all that out of place for the more recent eras to be somewhat American-heavy. The Modern Era in Civ 5 is roughly 1890-1940, when Europe was largely healing from the Great War, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's not much infrastructure development in Europe. Maybe the Autobahn? With some bonus to either road movement, or armored units.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Also decided to increase number of policy wonders to 3:

• Golden Dagon Pagoda --> [TRADITION]
• Great Zimbabwe --> [PROGRESS]
  
• Krak des Chevaliers --> [AUTHORITY]

like for ideologies.

 

[ProCatGamer]

I agree with @kenneth1221 here about the difficulty of finding industrial era wonders outside of Europe as other continents started their industrial revolution outside of that era (except North America and Japan) as well as the game modern era is plague by the 2 wars as well as the great depression makes it hard to find many wonders...

for industrial perhaps you can consider Darjeeling Himalayan Railway, it's in India and has the iconic blue toy train model.
for modern perhaps you can consider The Crystal Palace, it was built in UK but was burnt down, but since this mod adds the world trade centre I thought maybe this could be considered.

I also have another location which is Nanjing Road which was built during the industrial era but also bleeds into modern era as that was when it reached its height of a true landmark in china for being a true shopping district.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Crystal Palace is already World Congress wonder.

 

[ProCatGamer]

Oh but I thought this mod isn't linked to that mod as both mods also already have the Hollywood wonder...?

 

[adan_eslavo]

I meant that it is already part of VP and can be built after World congress vote.

Spoiler Crystal Palace in VP :

 

[ProCatGamer]

Oh I see sry haven't played in a while I got confused

also

Marina Sands (Bulgaria)

I think you made a typo on the first page?
I believe Marina Sands is referring to Marina Bay Sands in Singapore?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Uhh... maybe you're right. Nice

 

[ProCatGamer]

I've found two more landmarks however am not so sure about which era to put them in or to include them at all

First one being Ipiranga Monument which I saw the other day on steam workshop page and found it interesting. It was built in brazil but it sorta span from the industrial to the modern era and I'm not sure if we want another Brazilian modern era wonder

Another being Plaza del Zócalo which is located in Mexico but I'm unsure if it shld be placed during the industrial or Renaissance but it was completed during the industrial so probably then.

 

[pineappledan]

For industrial wonders, couldn’t you use one of many parliament buildings?

what about chateau Frontenac or Banff springs hotel?

Spoiler :

Must be within 2 tiles of a mountain and have a train station in the city
Available at Biology
33
1GMerchant Points
Free Hotel in City
55 for every Mountain within 3 tiles of this city
-1 from Boredom

maybe the Skansen? The world’s first open-air museum.

Spoiler :

Available at Fertilizer
1
1GMerchant Points
Free Museum
2 to Nearby Farms, Plantations, and Pastures
-1 from Boredom

Maybe the Siku Quanshu? The world’s largest encyclopedia until Wikipedia.

Spoiler :

Available at Printing Press
11
Free Great Writer appears in this city
2 to Great Works this City
3 slots for Great Works of Writing (must all be from your own civilization; 66 if themed)
-1 from Illiteracy

if you’re looking for another medieval non-religious wonder, maybe the Falun mine?

Spoiler :

Available at Printing Press
31
1 copy of Copper Luxury Resource in this city
1from Great Engineers in this City
11from Mines on Empire

Perhaps the Kyzyl center if Asia monument.

 

[kenneth1221]

I have to say, looking at the Wonders list, I'm impressed by how so many of them have unique effects. It's a good job. (Though we don't have Exploration anymore--just Imperialism. Polar Expeditions would fit with Exploration but not necessarily with Imperialism)

You could also incorporate wonders from other Civs that didn't make it into Civ 5 (or VP/this mod). Looking at various Wikis, from Civ 4 that's really just Versailles, though arguably it already has gameplay equivalent wonders. From Civ 6, that's Apadana, Bolshoi Theater, Casa De Contratacion, Estadio do Maracana, the Great Bath (though arguably that doesn't have a gameplay niche without flood events (which technically do exist in VP)), Huey Teocalli, Jebel Barkal (which is classical era and Sudanese), Kilwa Kisiwani, Kotoku-in, Mahabodhi Temple (classical), Meenakshi Temple, and Orszaghaz. Of course, that depends entirely on if you're interested in any of them. (wiki link https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Wonder_(Civ6), but if you're alright with it I can suggest effects for most of the things I just listed/translate Civ 4/6 effects into VP effects. Just don't want to spend effort if you're at a wonder limit. On the bright side you don't have to worry about Civilopedia entries if Firaxis already wrote them.)

After all, why reinvent the wheel?

Also, if you've ever heard of the Civ4 mod Caveman 2 Cosmos, they have a concept for wonders that are group wonders. Essentially, they're similar wonders that are mutually exclusive, like Corporations. Harvard is exclusive with Yale and Oxford, for example. Might be worth considering. For example, if you decide to include multiple transportation focused wonders, the player might have to make a choice between the Autobahn XOR the Trans-Siberian Railway XOR the Interstate Highway System (for example) XOR the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway. It might bloat the game, but it would also be an easy way to produce a baseline power boost but give unique special effects.

I also have another location which is Nanjing Road which was built during the industrial era but also bleeds into modern era as that was when it reached its height of a true landmark in china for being a true shopping district.

I don't want to be mean, but it's a shopping district. That's hardly something that captures the imagination. What sets Nanjing Road apart from Akihabara or the Mall of the Americas?

Finally, from a flavor standpoint, I have a request that would appeal to me on a personal level but that I will understand if others disagree with. Please, please try to keep wonders impressive, the sorts of places that inspire a sense of awe or loss or majesty. I think it's a good idea to consider balancing coolness and noteworthiness with geographical representation. The feeling I want to feel upon building a wonder is along the lines of "Awesome, I built the Statue of Zeus in my city, I can go to war!" or " Heck yeah, I built Gobekli Tepe, take that Ancient Aliens theorists!", not "So... why is the CN Tower considered a wonder of the world, again?" (rhetorical question). This may just sound small minded, though, especially since all of that is highly subjective.

 

[Bordukov]

a few wonders for Renaissance > Industrial

1. (China) Fenghuang Ancient Town (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

- It was built in 1704, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance > Industrial
- from Asia
- interesting combinations are available to limit the construction (river, montain, grass, forest)
- an example of a bonus: River Tile +1

2. (Russia) Kizhi Pogost (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

- date of foundation 1714, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance > Industrial
- from Northern Europe
- interesting combinations are available to limit the construction (lake, tundra, snow, forest, marsh)
- UNESCO World Heritage Site
- an example of a bonus: Lake Plot +1, Tundra +1

3. (Germany) Bergpark Wilhelmshohe (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

-date of foundation 1696, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance > Industrial
- from Europe
- interesting combinations are available to limit the construction (hill, grass, forest, not water)
- UNESCO World Heritage Site
- an example of a bonus: happiness , golden age

4. (England) Kew Gardens (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

- date opened 1759, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance > Industrial
- from Europe
- largest and most diverse botanical and mycological collections in the world
- UNESCO World Heritage Site
- an example of a bonus: science , happiness , golden age

5. (Germany) Zollverein Coal Mine Industrial Complex (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

-The history of the Zollverein mine begins in the 1830s: Industrial > Modern
- UNESCO World Heritage Site
- an example of a bonus: production

6. (Denmark) Dyrehavsbakken (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

- opened in 1583, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance
- oldest operating amusement park in the world
- an example of a bonus: happiness , golden age

 

[adan_eslavo]

Thank you all for your suggestions. I will analyze them all, I promise and revise concepts choosing the best. It's a pity we cannot put them all, but maybe I will increase number of ideology wonders to 4 to fit every type of winning condition?

 

[hokath]

maybe I will increase number of ideology wonders to 4 to fit every type of winning condition?

I was under the impression that each ideology was meant to focus on 3 of the 4? I don't think you need to change this, some of the requirements are already very specific.

 

[Padre19]

Enlightenment Era wonders ?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Enlightenment Era wonders ?

Later. First base version must work. Then we can thing of moving wonders between eras.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I was under the impression that each ideology was meant to focus on 3 of the 4? I don't think you need to change this, some of the requirements are already very specific.

Yeah, but cultural victory is in every ideology and rest only in two. I must think of it.

 

[kenneth1221]

If you want more ideology wonders, why not make hybrid wonders? I.e for Autocracy you'd have a culture-domination, a domination-diplomatic, and diplomatic-culture wonder. Would still be mutually exclusive, and would let you keep to the theme.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I revised whole plan. Made reserve for wonders that have no place there for now.

I've found two more landmarks however am not so sure about which era to put them in or to include them at all

First one being Ipiranga Monument which I saw the other day on steam workshop page and found it interesting. It was built in brazil but it sorta span from the industrial to the modern era and I'm not sure if we want another Brazilian modern era wonder

Another being Plaza del Zócalo which is located in Mexico but I'm unsure if it shld be placed during the industrial or Renaissance but it was completed during the industrial so probably then.

I kinda liked Zocalo. It is nice substitution for Trafalgar Square imo.

For industrial wonders, couldn’t you use one of many parliament buildings?

what about chateau Frontenac or Banff springs hotel?

Spoiler :

Must be within 2 tiles of a mountain and have a train station in the city
Available at Biology
33
1GMerchant Points
Free Hotel in City
55 for every Mountain within 3 tiles of this city
-1 from Boredom

maybe the Skansen? The world’s first open-air museum.

Spoiler :

Available at Fertilizer
1
1GMerchant Points
Free Museum
2 to Nearby Farms, Plantations, and Pastures
-1 from Boredom

Maybe the Siku Quanshu? The world’s largest encyclopedia until Wikipedia.

Spoiler :

Available at Printing Press
11
Free Great Writer appears in this city
2 to Great Works this City
3 slots for Great Works of Writing (must all be from your own civilization; 66 if themed)
-1 from Illiteracy

if you’re looking for another medieval non-religious wonder, maybe the Falun mine?

Spoiler :

Available at Printing Press
31
1 copy of Copper Luxury Resource in this city
1from Great Engineers in this City
11from Mines on Empire

Perhaps the Kyzyl center if Asia monument.

Falun Mine will excellent third wonder for progress! Thanks. Also Siqu Quanshu and Banff Springs Hotel (3rd for Statecraft) are in my current plan.

I changed your initial idea for Falun Mine. Imho, base for it should be . / looked like copy of Forge of Damascus, which unfortunately was placed in same tech (Why you put it at Printing Press?):

Spoiler Falun Mine :

• [PROGRESS] Falun Mine (Sweden) at Steel /Lake, 1 of [Copper, Gold, Silver]/:
  • 2 copies of Copper;
  • 2 and 4 ;
  • 1 and 1 per local Copper, Gold and Silver;
  • 1 to all Mines;
  • 1 per local Engineer;

I have to say, looking at the Wonders list, I'm impressed by how so many of them have unique effects. It's a good job. (Though we don't have Exploration anymore--just Imperialism. Polar Expeditions would fit with Exploration but not necessarily with Imperialism)

You could also incorporate wonders from other Civs that didn't make it into Civ 5 (or VP/this mod). Looking at various Wikis, from Civ 4 that's really just Versailles, though arguably it already has gameplay equivalent wonders. From Civ 6, that's Apadana, Bolshoi Theater, Casa De Contratacion, Estadio do Maracana, the Great Bath (though arguably that doesn't have a gameplay niche without flood events (which technically do exist in VP)), Huey Teocalli, Jebel Barkal (which is classical era and Sudanese), Kilwa Kisiwani, Kotoku-in, Mahabodhi Temple (classical), Meenakshi Temple, and Orszaghaz. Of course, that depends entirely on if you're interested in any of them. (wiki link https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Wonder_(Civ6), but if you're alright with it I can suggest effects for most of the things I just listed/translate Civ 4/6 effects into VP effects. Just don't want to spend effort if you're at a wonder limit. On the bright side you don't have to worry about Civilopedia entries if Firaxis already wrote them.)

After all, why reinvent the wheel?

Also, if you've ever heard of the Civ4 mod Caveman 2 Cosmos, they have a concept for wonders that are group wonders. Essentially, they're similar wonders that are mutually exclusive, like Corporations. Harvard is exclusive with Yale and Oxford, for example. Might be worth considering. For example, if you decide to include multiple transportation focused wonders, the player might have to make a choice between the Autobahn XOR the Trans-Siberian Railway XOR the Interstate Highway System (for example) XOR the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway. It might bloat the game, but it would also be an easy way to produce a baseline power boost but give unique special effects.



I don't want to be mean, but it's a shopping district. That's hardly something that captures the imagination. What sets Nanjing Road apart from Akihabara or the Mall of the Americas?

Finally, from a flavor standpoint, I have a request that would appeal to me on a personal level but that I will understand if others disagree with. Please, please try to keep wonders impressive, the sorts of places that inspire a sense of awe or loss or majesty. I think it's a good idea to consider balancing coolness and noteworthiness with geographical representation. The feeling I want to feel upon building a wonder is along the lines of "Awesome, I built the Statue of Zeus in my city, I can go to war!" or " Heck yeah, I built Gobekli Tepe, take that Ancient Aliens theorists!", not "So... why is the CN Tower considered a wonder of the world, again?" (rhetorical question). This may just sound small minded, though, especially since all of that is highly subjective.

Ok, one by one:

• thanks for the Exploration/Imperialism note. I missed that. Now corrected.
• I watched on youtube movie with all current civ 6 wonders and had it in front of me. For now decided to choose few of them (Estadio do Maracana, Great Bath was added earlier as Mohenjo-daro, Huey Teocalli is part of MUCfVP now, Jebel Barkal is more like Natural Wonder, Kilwa Kisiwani, Orszaghaz, Great Zimbabwe and Ruhr Valley), so if want you can start working on taking texts for them. It's a pity we cannot add Sean Bean's dialogues into Civ 5...
• I liked your idea of mutually exclusive movement wonders (2 rail-based and 2 road-based).
• I will stay with Nanjing I suppose...
• that's my goal to make them unique. If you have some original idea for any wonder that require lua programming just suggest it. Also this is why I avoid adding tons of religious wonders. Now we have parks, bridges, monuments, plazas, commercial buildings, hotels, stadiums etc. I hope you will like my set I made today.

@kenneth1221 Do you have github account? I could add you to the project, so it would be easier for you to mess with texts. Also some laready done wonders need civilopedia entries, but I'm not native english speaker, so I'm passing that job for now.

a few wonders for Renaissance > Industrial
1. (China) Fenghuang Ancient Town (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

- It was built in 1704, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance > Industrial
- from Asia
- interesting combinations are available to limit the construction (river, montain, grass, forest)
- an example of a bonus: River Tile +1

2. (Russia) Kizhi Pogost (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

- date of foundation 1714, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance > Industrial
- from Northern Europe
- interesting combinations are available to limit the construction (lake, tundra, snow, forest, marsh)
- UNESCO World Heritage Site
- an example of a bonus: Lake Plot +1, Tundra +1

3. (Germany) Bergpark Wilhelmshohe (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

-date of foundation 1696, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance > Industrial
- from Europe
- interesting combinations are available to limit the construction (hill, grass, forest, not water)
- UNESCO World Heritage Site
- an example of a bonus: happiness , golden age

4. (England) Kew Gardens (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

- date opened 1759, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance > Industrial
- from Europe
- largest and most diverse botanical and mycological collections in the world
- UNESCO World Heritage Site
- an example of a bonus: science , happiness , golden age

5. (Germany) Zollverein Coal Mine Industrial Complex (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

-The history of the Zollverein mine begins in the 1830s: Industrial > Modern
- UNESCO World Heritage Site
- an example of a bonus: production

6. (Denmark) Dyrehavsbakken (wiki)

Spoiler a few facts for adding :

- opened in 1583, we can expand the line of wonders: Renaissance
- oldest operating amusement park in the world
- an example of a bonus: happiness , golden age

Kew Gardens will be excellent for early Rationalism wonder I was looking for. Thanks. Zollverein Coal Mine Industrial Complex will be part of Ruhr Valley I want to add so I'm now sure to to this. Dyrehavsbakken and Skansen were two similar wonders, and I decided to add first one.

If you want more ideology wonders, why not make hybrid wonders? I.e for Autocracy you'd have a culture-domination, a domination-diplomatic, and diplomatic-culture wonder. Would still be mutually exclusive, and would let you keep to the theme.

All wonders will be kind of hybrid, but with main focus on one victory type. I added plan for new set of ideology wonders. Only Millau Viaduct looks like out of place. Anyone knows why it was initially in autocracy?

 

[How to know]

I don't want to be mean, but it's a shopping district. That's hardly something that captures the imagination. What sets Nanjing Road apart from Akihabara or the Mall of the Americas?

I agree that if Nanjing Road is simply a shopping district, than it makes little sense to put it as a wonder. What makes it special is perhaps it represents a very specific period of Shanghai, when Capitalism and democracy first spread in China. As a major port and important seat for foreign investment and embassies it was one of the root of the Chinese westernization movement. I appreciate what you mentioned regarding the Awe effect, and Nanjing Road itself is not so iconic, although if you have ever been to Stonehenge and the Lean Tower of Pisa you might understand that although some existing wonders are well accepted, their actual architectural experience can be... underwhelming? So if Nanjing Road is to represents the westernisation, perhaps the “architectural complex of All nation” in Shanghai Bund would fit more, I don’t think that is the proper translation though. Firstly it is on the Eastern end of Nanjing Road, so you can compress this 5km commercial street into a 1km building complex. Secondly the complex is consists of over 50 buildings built by western nations, mostly banks, companies franchise and embassies, and you can see almost all western architectural style there, from Classical Greek to Gothic, from Renaissance to neo Classical, but mainly there are Baroque. The place was built in around 1910s, so perhaps a late Industrial or early Modern wonder?

Similarly, Japan had also went through a very struggling westernization process, known as Meiji Reform, which I am sure it won’t need more introduction. One of the representative building I can think of is Akasaka Palace, it is a palace that is a mix of traditional Japanese architecture and neo classical architecture. It was built by the order of Japanese emperor as a grand guesthouse for foreign diplomats, thinkers and traders.

While we are on Japanese, I don’t see why not Akihabara can not be a wonder itself, I will argue that being in there, it provides the exact Awe effect one would expect from wonders, more so than Time Square. Akiba is a product of the rapid economic growth of Japan after WWII, many of Japanese home electronic companies are located there, we know how widespread Japanese electronic are. Added to that, Akiba is also representative of the current Japanese Pop Culture, like games, mangas and animes. It makes no sense to discard a potential wonder just because its commercial nature, money is not a dirty word. It can be assigned to information Era.

I will also argue that California Disneyland should be a wonder as well. It makes sense that Firax won’t include it for legal reason, but I believe the influence of Disney is justifiable for it to be a wonder. The latest generations have been raised in a environment full of processed cultural mixed fantasy by Disney, for better or worse Disney has little rivals among culture production for kids, not to mention its wider film productions. I believe it will be a perfect Ideology wonder.