(poll) What civs would you like to see in a hypothetical third expansion?

[PhoenicianGold]

With the Iroquois, though, I'd expect something like "subversive diplomacy"--like gaining alliance points faster with civs at war with your allies. Since that's pretty much how the Iroquois operated, playing off the other powers in the region (native and European) against each other.


I don't think it would be appropriate to portray the PNW tribes as pacifist. While they didn't really engage much in "warfare" until the Russians and British invaded, they certainly did a great deal of feuding, both between clans and between tribes. I was suggesting a unique mechanic for making peace after a war rather than avoiding war altogether.

Ah, I was seeing it as a way of terminating wars, not cleaning up fallout.

I would be fine with both of these models. I'm not a huge fan of warmongering civs, but these put enough of a diplomatic spin on things that I think would add dimension to the game.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

I don't think it would be appropriate to portray the PNW tribes as pacifist. While they didn't really engage much in "warfare" until the Russians and British invaded, they certainly did a great deal of feuding, both between clans and between tribes. I was suggesting a unique mechanic for making peace after a war rather than avoiding war altogether.

Ah, I was seeing it as a way of terminating wars, not cleaning up fallout.

I would be fine with both of these models. I'm not a huge fan of warmongering civs, but these put enough of a diplomatic spin on things that I think would add dimension to the game.

Definitely agreed. I've been thinking of how, when making peace, you get a free relic and both players get their units healed. I know for the Tlingit at least this happened fairly often for the loser to give a prestigious heirloom like a crest hat to the winner (one of the most famous examples being how the first Chief Shakes got his Killer Whale hat). I'm not too sure if the Haida and Nookta were similar in that regard but its no secret that I think the Tlingit are the best choice for the PNW anyway.

 

[Patine]

Definitely agreed. I've been thinking of how, when making peace, you get a free relic and both players get their units healed. I know for the Tlingit at least this happened fairly often for the loser to give a prestigious heirloom like a crest hat to the winner (one of the most famous examples being how the first Chief Shakes got his Killer Whale hat). I'm not too sure if the Haida and Nookta were similar in that regard but its no secret that I think the Tlingit are the best choice for the PNW anyway.

No secret? That statement almost implies unanimous consensus or objective fact. Personally, I'm partial to the Haida, so count me as a dissident.

 

[Zaarin]

Definitely agreed. I've been thinking of how, when making peace, you get a free relic and both players get their units healed. I know for the Tlingit at least this happened fairly often for the loser to give a prestigious heirloom like a crest hat to the winner (one of the most famous examples being how the first Chief Shakes got his Killer Whale hat). I'm not too sure if the Haida and Nookta were similar in that regard but its no secret that I think the Tlingit are the best choice for the PNW anyway.

Though the heirlooms given were often intangible (names, songs, etc.), but that could still be represented with a Relic. The Haida did indeed have similar rituals, as did the Tsimshian, who together form the Upper PNW. I'm less certain if such rituals were practiced in the Middle and Lower PNW.

No secret? That statement almost implies unanimous consensus or objective fact. Personally, I'm partial to the Haida, so count me as a dissident.

He said it was no secret that it was his preference. Personally I agree that the Tlingit are the best choice, but I'd have no problem with the Haida, Tsimshian, or Kwakwaka'wakw either. The latter are probably ruled out by dint of their name's being a mouthful for Anglophones.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Definitely agreed. I've been thinking of how, when making peace, you get a free relic and both players get their units healed. I know for the Tlingit at least this happened fairly often for the loser to give a prestigious heirloom like a crest hat to the winner (one of the most famous examples being how the first Chief Shakes got his Killer Whale hat). I'm not too sure if the Haida and Nookta were similar in that regard but its no secret that I think the Tlingit are the best choice for the PNW anyway.

Count me as a Tlingit supporter as well. The closer we could get a PNW that straddles the U.S. and Canada, the less my OCD is triggered.

Also, I like your "Brand New Civs" list. That Ireland, Burma, Yakuti, Hawaii synergy. Would you perchance be okay with a Colombia civ with substantial incorporation of Muisca heritage? I saw a proposed Colombia civ that had a Museo del Oro as a UI, and I personally think a Poporo would be the perfect icon for any iteratiion of Colombia.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Babylon - A grand Mesopotamian Empire with a capital being a city of wonders, the largest city in the world and important centre long after the fall of both Achaemenid Persia and Alexander's Empire. Methinks with a bit of work, it could be made different from Sumer. (let's replace the Babylonian monument could be replaced with the law stele). About leaders, Hammurabi, Nabopolassar and Nabuchadnezzar II would all make great leaders.
Portugal - a small Iberian country successfully managed to overcome Ottoman high taxation of European spice traders, dominate the naval exploration and form a great trade Empire, and also the very first colonial empire in the world. Manuel I for me, with the unique and beautiful Manueline architecture incorporated into Portugal as his agenda or leader bonus (and/or in the Portuguese palace design) would be great. João II could also do.
Maya - I'll admit here that I have little to no knowledge of Mayan leaders, so anyone good will do.
Byzantium - survived almost 1000 years longer than the Western half of the Roman Empire, successfully influencing Eastern Europe by spreading Orthodox faith to Balkans and Russia. A high medieval Byzantium would be great this time. I would like to see Basil II Bulgaroktonos, Alexios I Komnenos or Manuel I Komnenos.
Ethiopia - one of the most ancient Empires to exist, a bastion of Christian faith in Africa, the only nation in Africa to never get colonised, successfully humiliating the Italians at Adwa. Menelik II would make a great leader. Also, I want that string instrument from the Ethiopian war theme back.
Morocco/Moors - A rather empty part of the world could be very well filled by them. I also love their architecture (well, and I also seem to be probably the only person to seriously like their Civ V themes ) I have little knowledge in the leaders of Morocco/al-Andalus, so I suppose anyone good would do. Even Ahmad al-Mansur again, if they make him more militaristic (I mean, he conquered Songhai just for those gold mines...)
Mughal Empire - Once again, I adore the great Mughal architecture. The Mughals were incredibbly rich. Also probably the closest to unify India since the Maurya Empire. Akbar the Great is my preferred leader choice. Din-i-Ilahi offers itself for his agenda/ability immediately.
some Native American tribe (not excluding Navajo though) - I aknowledge the emptiness of this area and I think adding some tribe would be nice. Unfortunately my knowledge/interest in Native Americans is low, so I don't have any specific wish.

There are many other great choices to pick tho... Bohemia, Austria, Italy, some Balkan Empire other than Byzantium (Serbia/Bulgaria), Assyria, Armenia...

Should I also pick an alternate leader, I would go either with Thutmose III for Egypt or a Ming/Qing/Song/Tang Emperor for China (preferably Yongle of Ming or Kangxi of Qing)

 

[Patine]

Ming/Qing/Song/Tang Emperor for China (preferably Yongle of Ming or Kangxi of Qing)

As long as said leader ISN'T Cixi. There seem to be several people on these forums very much attached to, and invested in, the idea of seeing her in game, despite what a disaster her reign was, what happened to China (and the whole Mandate of Heaven) just a few short years after her death, and her utter incompetence in dealing with what was going on around, as if in a nostalgic delusional haze.

 

[Zaarin]

As long as said leader ISN'T Cixi. There seem to be several people on these forums very much attached to, and invested in, the idea of seeing her in game, despite what a disaster her reign was, what happened to China (and the whole Mandate of Heaven) just a few short years after her death, and her utter incompetence in dealing with what was going on around, as if in a nostalgic delusional haze.

Second no Cixi. If you want a female ruler of China, Empress Wu is the clear choice, though she has some hefty overlap in design space and persona with CdM--maybe she can return for Civ7.

 

[Kimiimaro]

As long as said leader ISN'T Cixi. There seem to be several people on these forums very much attached to, and invested in, the idea of seeing her in game, despite what a disaster her reign was, what happened to China (and the whole Mandate of Heaven) just a few short years after her death, and her utter incompetence in dealing with what was going on around, as if in a nostalgic delusional haze.

Worry not, I am not interested in having Qing leader from the time period of the rapid decline of the Empire and military defeats from every direction (who also orchestrated the overthrowing and probably assassination of the reformist Guangxu Emperor trying to save Qing) myself.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I would prefer a Qing emperor over a Jin, Tang, or Yuan emperor myself. On priniciple the Kangxi emperor makes sense, but as far as diverse gameplay goes he's kind of boring. Whereas Cixi would indisputably be a character. I really doubt the devs would pass over an opportunity for more female representation, and I'm pretty certain that China's second leader will either be Wu Zetian or Cixi because of how easy they are as options.

I don't care about whether rulers were perfect or their military/territorial achievements, or how fondly they are remembered. Kristina was an excellent addition as a matter of game design. As long as their character fits in with the civ's playstyle identity and they weren't literally Hitler, I can grant a lot of leniency to fudge-up leaders. VI seems to be attempting to humanize a lot of civs, not just put them all on similar imperialist pedestals, and part of that is accepting some quirkier parts of their history.

Back when we didn't have a clearer backdrop, the choice of CdM irritated the spit out of me. Now I get it. We coo.

 

[Patine]

I don't care about whether rulers were perfect or their military/territorial achievements, or how fondly they are remembered. Kristina was an excellent addition as a matter of game design.

This is an out-of-proportion understatement. Have you noticed there's next to no one asking for Nicholas II as a Russian leader, or Constanine XI Palaeologos as a Byzantine leader, or Shah Reza Mohammed Pahlavi as a Persian leader, or other famous leaders "holding the poisoned chalice as the falls crumble around while doing little to better the situation, and often making the fall come quicker." There's very likely a reason for the lack of demand of these leaders, and others in very similar positions. And Cixi is VERY MUCH in this niche, I'm afraid.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm going to agree with Patine here: France and Sweden didn't crumble into dust as a result of CdM or Kristina. Cixi, on the other hand, very much so presided over the collapse of China and did her part to get it there (unlike, say, Cleopatra, who did her best with the very bad hand she was dealt).

I'd be a little surprised to see Wu Zetian simply because she was a surprising pick featured in the last game (don't get me wrong--I'm a fan--but they've definitely been shying away from repeat leaders, with exceptions like Alexander, Genghis, and...ugh...Gandhi--all of which are generally considered "iconic" to either their civ or the franchise or especially both); I'd be equally surprised to see China get a second leader, as much as it deserves one. The only thing that might give China an edge on the second leader front is that there aren't really many East Asian civs left that are just begging for inclusion, which means a second Chinese or Japanese leader could cover the East Asian front in a future expansion; then again, GS had no East Asian civs or leaders.

 

[Jkchart]

I'm going to agree with Patine here: France and Sweden didn't crumble into dust as a result of CdM or Kristina. Cixi, on the other hand, very much so presided over the collapse of China and did her part to get it there (unlike, say, Cleopatra, who did her best with the very bad hand she was dealt).

I'd be a little surprised to see Wu Zetian simply because she was a surprising pick featured in the last game (don't get me wrong--I'm a fan--but they've definitely been shying away from repeat leaders, with exceptions like Alexander, Genghis, and...ugh...Gandhi--all of which are generally considered "iconic" to either their civ or the franchise or especially both); I'd be equally surprised to see China get a second leader, as much as it deserves one. The only thing that might give China an edge on the second leader front is that there aren't really many East Asian civs left that are just begging for inclusion, which means a second Chinese or Japanese leader could cover the East Asian front in a future expansion; then again, GS had no East Asian civs or leaders.

Wise words from you and Patine. Cixi is an awful choice, whereas Cleopatra, as maligned as our community makes her, is a choice that I can respect even if there are better options (same for CdM and Kristina, though I like both of those picks).

Would love to see Empress Wu return - one of the absolute coolest choices for a leader in Civ V. China deserves a second leader, and the Chinese ability "Dynastic Cycles" basically begs them to add a second. Wu, perhaps Kangxi, and I've also suggested as a more modern alternative, the "father" of modern China (respected both by the Communists and Nationalists greatly) Sun Yat-Sen.

 

[Patine]

and I've also suggested as a more modern alternative, the "father" of modern China (respected both by the Communists and Nationalists greatly) Sun Yat-Sen.

There is a senior citizen's care home run by, and for, Chinese-Canadians three blocks from my apartment building called the "Chinese Elders' Mansion," and it's a bust of Sun Yat-sen with the plaque (the English-language version of the text) calls him "the Father of Modern China."

 

[Morningcalm]

While Cixi wasn't quite as bad as some say (she was a reformer in some ways, and some of the things precipitating the fall of the empire were done by western powers or advisors overly friendly with imperialist Japan), she is controversial for her purported role in the fall of the empire, and probably won't be in the game for that reason. A shame though. She had some killer quotes, and we actually know what she looked like (unlike with Wu Zetian, about whom we know little in terms of appearance except that she was beautiful). I agree Wu is the clear Chinese female leader choice, but I think Kangxi would be a great (scientific/literary/military) option, and judging from what some of my Chinese friends and former colleagues tell me, he would actually be less controversial than Wu among the Chinese.

 

[Zaarin]

we actually know what she looked like (unlike with Wu Zetian, about whom we know little in terms of appearance except that she was beautiful).

We know what Pedro II and Phillip II looked like, but that doesn't seem to have influenced Firaxis' artists in the slightest.

 

[Morningcalm]

We know what Pedro II and Phillip II looked like, but that doesn't seem to have influenced Firaxis' artists in the slightest.

In Civ V at least they tried to be close to what Pedro looked like. It's in Civ VI where we start getting plasticine leaders mixed with more realistic ones. The inconsistency in the leader builds is annoying, to say the least. And it's characteristic of similar problems elsewhere--for example, the map "fog of war" is much more artistic and thus at odds with the "blue plastic" look of the main menu and UI in all other respects.

 

[Kimiimaro]

In Civ V at least they tried to be close to what Pedro looked like. It's in Civ VI where we start getting plasticine leaders mixed with more realistic ones. The inconsistency in the leader builds is annoying, to say the least. And it's characteristic of similar problems elsewhere--for example, the map "fog of war" is much more artistic and thus at odds with the "blue plastic" look of the main menu and UI in all other respects.

It got better as the time went, luckily. I really like the Gathering Storm leader models.

I like Civ V leaders and leaderscreens better though.

 

[Zaarin]

In Civ V at least they tried to be close to what Pedro looked like. It's in Civ VI where we start getting plasticine leaders mixed with more realistic ones. The inconsistency in the leader builds is annoying, to say the least. And it's characteristic of similar problems elsewhere--for example, the map "fog of war" is much more artistic and thus at odds with the "blue plastic" look of the main menu and UI in all other respects.

As is well known, I like Civ6's art style as a whole, but Pedro and Phillip (and a few others) don't even vaguely resemble their portraits--not even caricatures of their portraits.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Though the heirlooms given were often intangible (names, songs, etc.), but that could still be represented with a Relic. The Haida did indeed have similar rituals, as did the Tsimshian, who together form the Upper PNW. I'm less certain if such rituals were practiced in the Middle and Lower PNW.


He said it was no secret that it was his preference. Personally I agree that the Tlingit are the best choice, but I'd have no problem with the Haida, Tsimshian, or Kwakwaka'wakw either. The latter are probably ruled out by dint of their name's being a mouthful for Anglophones.

Thank you and definitely agreed. The Tlingit are my favorite but I'd have nothing against a Haida or other PNW civ if it was made (especially now knowing that they had similar rituals). I just view the Tlingit as the best choice due to some little known but fascinating leaders that I've found in Shotridge and Katlian, their general history, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall you saying that culture in the PNW got more complex and richer the further north you go and culminating with the Tlingit. Just to be clear, I'm sure the Haida, Tsimshian, and others may have had some great leaders too but I'm still looking to find them. If we didn't get the Tlingit, my next choice currently would be the Nookta given what we know about some of their leaders (though I'd be sad that they didn't have wooden armored warriors like the Tlingit and Haida).

Count me as a Tlingit supporter as well. The closer we could get a PNW that straddles the U.S. and Canada, the less my OCD is triggered.

Also, I like your "Brand New Civs" list. That Ireland, Burma, Yakuti, Hawaii synergy. Would you perchance be okay with a Colombia civ with substantial incorporation of Muisca heritage? I saw a proposed Colombia civ that had a Museo del Oro as a UI, and I personally think a Poporo would be the perfect icon for any iteratiion of Colombia.

Thanks, I definitely appreciate it! I should thank you as well for introducing me to some leader options that I didn't know about before like Grace O'Malley and Yusuf (I assume you mean this Yusuf right?). Fumo Liyongo looks like a decent option as well. I'd personally hope for another native SA civ but Colombia (especially with that design you've mentioned with the UI and icon) would be a great alternative that I'd be happy with! I don't think I'd say no to Bolivar in the game.

I also agree with how inconsistent Civ VI has been with the looks of the leaders. Some like Saladin, Pedro, and Montezuma look very bad even without comparison to the great looking ones like Cyrus and Gitarja. Thankfully some like Teddy and Seondeok went from looking worse at first to looking great with some adjustments.