[R&F] Poll: which are the last 4 R&F civs?

[Zaarin]

Civilization is a Greek word, originally.

So is barbarian. The Greeks are boring. One Greek would have been quite enough; four is waaaay overdoing it. Don't get me wrong, I want Byzantium, ironically enough, but I think we've more than met our ancient Hellenic leader quota now.

 

[Thormodr]

So is barbarian. The Greeks are boring. One Greek would have been quite enough; four is waaaay overdoing it. Don't get me wrong, I want Byzantium, ironically enough, but I think we've more than met our ancient Hellenic leader quota now.

One’s person’s treasure is another man’s junk. Anyway, I would love to see Byzantium. The history, the artwork.

Even as I read this poem again, it leaves me misty eyed.

Sailing to Byzantium
BY WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS
I

That is no country for old men. The young
In one another's arms, birds in the trees,
—Those dying generations—at their song,
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas,
Fish, flesh, or fowl, commend all summer long
Whatever is begotten, born, and dies.
Caught in that sensual music all neglect
Monuments of unageing intellect.


II

An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,
Nor is there singing school but studying
Monuments of its own magnificence;
And therefore I have sailed the seas and come
To the holy city of Byzantium.


III

O sages standing in God's holy fire
As in the gold mosaic of a wall,
Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre,
And be the singing-masters of my soul.
Consume my heart away; sick with desire
And fastened to a dying animal
It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity.


IV

Once out of nature I shall never take
My bodily form from any natural thing,
But such a form as Grecian goldsmiths make
Of hammered gold and gold enamelling
To keep a drowsy Emperor awake;
Or set upon a golden bough to sing
To lords and ladies of Byzantium
Of what is past, or passing, or to come.

 

[Zaarin]

I love that poem.

 

[eso12por8]

I think we're positively swimming in Hellenic civs and leaders right now; please no more.

In principle I agree with you, though the devs & this forum have spoken for years of wanting to have many Greek city-states & it seems they're actually putting it into practice.

So is barbarian. The Greeks are boring. One Greek would have been quite enough; four is waaaay overdoing it. Don't get me wrong, I want Byzantium, ironically enough, but I think we've more than met our ancient Hellenic leader quota now.

The word "barbarian" is literally anyone who is not Greek. & how dare you call Greeks boring! You wouldn't have anything if it weren't for the Greeks (I'm using my Greek sarcasm). I hope they can Tamar for Omphale just for your comment. Or even worse: bring back Theodora.

 

[Guandao]

I wouldn't quite consider Lydia a Hellenic Civilization, their language was part of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European language family, not the Hellenic branch. They were Hellenized culturally though.

 

[Guatenadian]

In principle I agree with you, though the devs & this forum have spoken for years of wanting to have many Greek city-states & it seems they're actually putting it into practice.

CivVII Now all the Civs are Greek City States!

 

[Zaarin]

In principle I agree with you, though the devs & this forum have spoken for years of wanting to have many Greek city-states & it seems they're actually putting it into practice.


The word "barbarian" is literally anyone who is not Greek. & how dare you call Greeks boring! You wouldn't have anything if it weren't for the Greeks (I'm using my Greek sarcasm). I hope they can Tamar for Omphale just for your comment. Or even worse: bring back Theodora.

Sorry, but the Greeks are boring. Their architecture was dull, their art was marred by a slavish attachment to realism over symbolism, and the only thing of interest they ever produced was Plato. Also a great deal of what I allegedly owe to the Greeks was stolen from Egypt, Babylon, and Persia, so...

I wouldn't quite consider Lydia a Hellenic Civilization, their language was part of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European language family, not the Hellenic branch. They were Hellenized culturally though.

That's why I called them "Hellenic" and not "Hellenes." But we know almost nothing of Lydian; it's the second poorest attested of all the Anatolian languages.

 

[Guandao]

Sorry, but the Greeks are boring. Their architecture was dull, their art was marred by a slavish attachment to realism over symbolism, and the only thing of interest they ever produced was Plato. Also a great deal of what I allegedly owe to the Greeks was stolen from Egypt, Babylon, and Persia, so...


That's why I called them "Hellenic" and not "Hellenes." But we know almost nothing of Lydian; it's the second poorest attested of all the Anatolian languages.

I like Mycenaean and Minoan art.

 

[Zaarin]

I like Mycenaean and Minoan art.

Minoan art is interesting, but it's also not Greek.

 

[Guandao]

Minoan art is interesting, but it's also not Greek.

I know that!

 

[eso12por8]

I wouldn't quite consider Lydia a Hellenic Civilization, their language was part of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European language family, not the Hellenic branch. They were Hellenized culturally though.

You're right, the common languages in Lydia at the time were Anatolian by 'origin.' This does not discount the hundreds of years Greeks lived there prior & solidified much of the culture by the time the Anatolian languages came through. Though the Hittites were there first, it's quite known there were many Greek settlements in Ionia which date back thousands of years to the Mycenæans. This means Greek people were there before the invasion of Troy (& Lydia was founded by Greeks who won the Trojan War). Ancient Greeks can be separated into four main groups: Achæans (~Pericles), Dorians (~Gorga), Æolians (~Alexander), & Ionians (Lydia). If they want to complete the Ancient Greek saga, they need one more civ, from Anatolia. Sardis, the capital of Lydia, was founded prior to the fall of Troy by natives of the area who, as stated, had their own language and elements of a culture which was certainly non-Hellenic, as well as pre-Lydian. The Lydian alphabet is arguably inspired by that of the Attic Greek or Mycenæan Linear B. There is speculation potholes in the Anatolian language theory has origins from Linear B, though so little is known about both languages, it's difficult to verify.

 

[Zaarin]

You're right, the common languages in Lydia at the time were Anatolian by 'origin.' This does not discount the hundreds of years Greeks lived there prior & solidified much of the culture by the time the Anatolian languages came through. Though the Hittites were there first, it's quite known there were many Greek settlements in Ionia which date back thousands of years to the Mycenæans. This means Greek people were there before the invasion of Troy (& Lydia was founded by Greeks who won the Trojan War). Ancient Greeks can be separated into four main groups: Achæans (~Pericles), Dorians (~Gorga), Æolians (~Alexander), & Ionians (Lydia). If they want to complete the Ancient Greek saga, they need one more civ, from Anatolia. Sardis, the capital of Lydia, was founded prior to the fall of Troy by natives of the area who, as stated, had their own language and elements of a culture which was certainly non-Hellenic, as well as pre-Lydian. The Lydian alphabet is arguably inspired by that of the Attic Greek or Mycenæan Linear B. There is speculation potholes in the Anatolian language theory has origins from Linear B, though so little is known about both languages, it's difficult to verify.

Well, the Anatolians were certainly in Anatolia before the Greek colonists, but by the time of Lydia the Anatolian languages were nearly extinct, under pressure from Greek on one side and Semitic languages like Aramaic and Akkadian on the other. Recall that the Anatolian languages were the first to branch off from Proto-Indo-European.

 

[eso12por8]

Sorry, but the Greeks are boring. Their architecture was dull, their art was marred by a slavish attachment to realism over symbolism, and the only thing of interest they ever produced was Plato. Also a great deal of what I allegedly owe to the Greeks was stolen from Egypt, Babylon, and Persia, so...

So much blasphemy I cannot fathom --- !
There is a lot that we're missing though, due to the Greek Dark Ages and also years of Ottoman rule where they took all the manuscripts and burned/destroyed them. Who knows what other amazing unique things were created by the Greeks as a result and given to others for credit? The art & architecture surely evolved over the years, yet most of it was lost. Certainly religion doesn't come from them, though philosophy seems to & I prefer deductive reasoning (even if through rhetoric). Persians & Egyptians were amazing, no doubt, though they didn't create everything among each other either (& I've never been fond of Cleopatra; I blame Shakespeare [talk about boring]).

 

[pgm123]

I wouldn't quite consider Lydia a Hellenic Civilization, their language was part of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European language family, not the Hellenic branch. They were Hellenized culturally though.

I don't consider the Lydians a Hellenic civilization. They are incredibly boring, though.

 

[Zaarin]

(& I've never been fond of Cleopatra; I blame Shakespeare [talk about boring]).

Talk about blasphemy--Antony and Cleopatra was, IMO, Shakespeare's best work!

But yeah, it's just personal taste. I realize that the Greeks had a foundational influence on Western civilization; I just don't find them even slightly interesting. Part of it is indeed that I'm very religious myself, so the Greek worldview (outside of Plato) is in sharp contrast to my own. Part of it is just that I find the Ancient Near East, pre-Roman Europe, post-Roman Europe, the Sinosphere, and pre-Columbian North America infinitely more interesting.

 

[eso12por8]

I don't consider the Lydians a Hellenic civilization. They are incredibly boring, though.

Lydians literally created monetary value of gold & silver. They were the first capital-based economy, and situated on a valuable portion of the Silk Road, fell to Cyrus.. At its height with two Ancient World Wonders (Temple of Artemis & Mausoleum of Halicarnassus.. of course, non-Hellenic ). I think there's more potential to them than people care to believe.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

MINOANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zaarin]

MINOANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...will never happen until Linear A and/or Minoan Hieroglyphics are translated, which is nowhere close to happening.

 

[Mr Toad's Wild Ride]

Agree that the Inca just make two much sense in terms of geographical, historical and mechanical distinction.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Venice's arch-rival, Genoa, fills the second spot. Unless I'm mistaken, the plague was introduced into Europe by Genoese trade ships (although the plague devastated both equally). Genoa is known for several ups and downs in terms of its influence and maybe they like that fit for R&F.

I think the third slot is either the Ottomans or the Byzantines... but not both. I'm leaning towards the Byzantines, for a potential female leader in Theodora again.

Maybe Austria for the last slot, I could see Metternich fitting in well with the emergency and/or alliance system.

That leaves:

1. Inca (Hills, Mountains, Production)
2. Genoa (Gold, Trade.... our first Unique commercial district to represent Genoese Banking maybe?)
3. Byzantines (Faith, Culture/Science?)
4. Austria (Some tie in with emergencies/alliances, culture?)

 

[Vahnstad]

...will never happen until Linear A and/or Minoan Hieroglyphics are translated, which is nowhere close to happening.

Ah, you'll never now, we already have three greek leaders, why not add a fourth one? Nobody expects the Greek Inquisition (or assimilation)