Preaching Atheism

[Quackers]

What if my goal is to alienate the religious?

Then your achieving your goal hehe.
It's just quite an arrogant OP and that does rile up people

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Then your achieving your goal hehe.
It's just quite an arrogant OP and that does rile up people

How is it arrogant?

Elaborate man! I'm atheist, not psychic.

 

[Quackers]

You can't tell?!

Ziggy your an Athiest?!
"Yes"
Pfft, DOUBT!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You can't tell?!

Ziggy your an Athiest?!
"Yes"
Pfft, DOUBT!

I still don't see. You act as if doubt is negative.

Maybe this will help.

I promote Doubt because I like doubt. Doubt is one the most important characteristic when you want to make progress. Otherwise you'll just stay with what you know without question, without change.

It is what led me towards Atheism and I believe it could lead others to it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9364163&postcount=73

Fer Sure! But when I have to promote atheism doubt is the best place to start. But you can apply it to about anything you think you know.

Most agnostics are atheists. So percentage wise I'm on track I think. And I am indeed promoting a specific part of atheism, the agnostic kind.

Doubt is essential for progress, so you get the double whammy of promoting progress and atheism with one single concept: Doubt.

 

[Borachio]

Strewth! Zigs. 2/3 quotes are your own! Is this a recognised technique? Are you now talking to an earlier version of yourself? I do believe you are.


edit: @ a later Borachio Please pardon my gross ignorance. I was honestly trying to do my best.

 

[Quackers]

Well I'm sorry pal but you must be quite arrogant to not see it.

I agree with what you say on doubt. The arrogant bit is when you identify another as religious, you think to yourself "Ahh he has reached the wrong conclusion", then you stradle your high horse and say one word "doubt". Not a well thought out paragraph of careful discussion but a slap in the face.
So you think religious people do not doubt? They are mindless drones believing everything in the bible and cannot think for themselves? That is another thing your saying. For shame, for shame.

 

[aelf]

They are mindless drones believing everything in the bible and cannot think for themselves?

A vast majority seem to be.

 

[Borachio]

The minority who can think for themselves and who also are familiar with the bible. Are they worth talking to?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well I'm sorry pal but you must be quite arrogant to not see it.

Oh well played Sir.

I agree with what you say on doubt. The arrogant bit is when you identify another as religious, you think to yourself "Ahh he has reached the wrong conclusion", then you stradle your high horse and say one word "doubt". Not a well thought out paragraph of careful discussion but a slap in the face.

Ah, not so well played. There's much assumption and little post reading in this one.

So you think religious people do not doubt? They are mindless drones believing everything in the bible and cannot think for themselves? That is another thing your saying. For shame, for shame.

When faith is the motivator for believing in God(s), and faith is belief without evidence, when one starts to doubt, chances are one may lose faith.

The mistake you're making is that I'm claiming religious people don't doubt. I believe they don't doubt their faith often enough. Their believing without evidence. I believe there's a great number of things they do have doubts about.

Just as I'm now urging you to doubt the assumption you made when you made that post calling me arrogant.

 

[aelf]

The minority who can think for themselves and who also are familiar with the bible. Are they worth talking to?

Well, I do think I'm worth talking to.

 

[Traitorfish]

Then your achieving your goal hehe.
It's just quite an arrogant OP and that does rile up people

Many Christian rationalists also advocate that people doubt the existence of God. They are simply of the opinion that the use of reason will lead them to conclude that God did, in fact, exist, and they will be all the better for having a sure foundation for their belief, rather than relying on sheer blind faith. The only sort of religious who would be in any way put out by the invitation to "doubt!" is one whose beliefs were held together by spit and wishes in the first place, and I'm not sure why we should feel compelled to treat them with kid gloves.

Put simply, if you've never doubted God's existence- or, at least, the particular form of existence that you had assumed to be the case- then you only believe him because it's never occurred to you that there might be an alternative, and you can't expect anybody else to go out of their way to protect your little bubble.

Do you aspire to be some kind of crazy mystic?

It sounds vaguely like Hassidic Judaism, but I may be off the mark with that one.

 

[Mark1031]

It is abundantly clear that neither reason or the scientific method or any other sort of similarly constrained pattern of thinking would lead to the idea of God. Besides having no evidence it has no explanatory power-it offers nothing and is incompatible with science. Now I certainly don’t understand the weird physics of space, time and matter and the origin of the universe so I suppose you could say I have “faith” in that science but the people and methods applied to come up with these models have produced many tangible results free for all to see on which I can base this supposed faith. I also know if they turn out to be wrong, which they most certainly will be in some respects, they will be the first to let me know.

 

[Leoreth]

Well I'm sorry pal but you must be quite arrogant to not see it.

I agree with what you say on doubt. The arrogant bit is when you identify another as religious, you think to yourself "Ahh he has reached the wrong conclusion", then you stradle your high horse and say one word "doubt". Not a well thought out paragraph of careful discussion but a slap in the face.
So you think religious people do not doubt? They are mindless drones believing everything in the bible and cannot think for themselves? That is another thing your saying. For shame, for shame.

Doubt can also be resolved by reaffirmation.

If your beliefs can't stand doubt, they aren't worth anything.

 

[Quackers]

I'm not doubting doubting

 

[warpus]

The thing about doubting something in the Bible is that there aren't any other sources you could examine nor could you go out and do any sort of research about whatever it is that you are doubting. I suppose you could talk to a priest, but he'll just quote from the Bible to you.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Doubt can also be resolved by reaffirmation.

From spiritual point of view this is sheer vaste of time. Its like doing what makes you sick and say: its O.K. cause I can take these pills to become healthy again. But spiritual man needs positive instrument to replace doubt: identification, introspection, development of insight, discrimination, intuition to name a few...

If your beliefs can't stand doubt, they aren't worth anything.

This is just wrong. Its like saying to a child if you cant stand this punch you will never be a boxer...
Doubt is very powerfull force; one may say most detrimental to spirituality or any kind of faith and offcourse negative one. To expose yourself to it after one has carefully choosen the path of inner development is act of stupidity and instead of condescending to it one should choose some positive approache to resolve ones problems.

 

[peter grimes]

To expose yourself to it [doubt] after one has carefully choosen the path of inner development is act of stupidity and instead of condescending to it one should choose some positive approache to resolve ones problems.

This perfectly explains why I think religious people are doing nothing more than sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming 'La-La-La I'm happy, DAMMIT!'

Yes, take all the time and care in the world to CHOOSE a path of inner development. because that's what it all comes down to, after all: a choice. You're choosing to believe in stuff that's not real. And that's fine, as long as it doesn't affect my life.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

This perfectly explains why I think religious people are doing nothing more than sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming 'La-La-La I'm happy, DAMMIT!'

Yes, take all the time and care in the world to CHOOSE a path of inner development. because that's what it all comes down to, after all: a choice. You're choosing to believe in stuff that's not real. And that's fine, as long as it doesn't affect my life.

I am glad I was instrumental in supplying you with the necessary piece of evidence which makes you understand how religious people are doing something beyond your willingness.
But to have the whole picture you have to understand why. The reason is that it allowes you to concentrate on development of faculties which otherwise would be left barren. Simmilar to that you cant get suntan unless you go out of your house into the sun. All the difference being here that somebody gives this particular development value and the other doesnt. Power to both, I say.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Doubt is very powerfull force; one may say most detrimental to spirituality or any kind of faith and offcourse negative one.

I'm sorry, but I have to object that it's a negative one.

When people began to doubt their way of healing people by spiritual means and decided to take a scientific approach instead, that is not a negative one.

Doubt itself does nothing except remove previously held convictions. If you trust the reasons why you arrived at those convictions you may end up there again. If by some new insight which was blocked by those previous convictions you arrive elsewhere, and that elsewhere can be spiritual or not, does it not improve your position since you allowed that new insight to have an effect?

To expose yourself to it after one has carefully choosen the path of inner development is act of stupidity and instead of condescending to it one should choose some positive approache to resolve ones problems.

Act of stupidity?

Oh, you will have to flesh out that one, in the mean while ... as you said, you carefully chosen a path of inner development. Carefully. By carefully you mean you took all things into consideration I guess? You were diligent in motivating for yourself why you chose that path. Then why this distrust of doubt? Are you afraid that once you let go, other insight might stray you off the path? Surely not. You were careful the first time around. Maybe you're not sure whether you were that careful, since it seems the process can't handle re-evaluation. It seems in your case I am preaching to the choir, and the doubt has already been seeded long before I made this thread. Since it seems to me you are aware of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. So, call it stupidity. Yes, that'll work. It'd be stupid to give in to that foolish doubt. Doubt would wreak havoc to that carefully constructed spirituality.

The thing is, does the path decide where you go, or do you decide where the path goes? Are you going to be a passenger, or will you take control of your life? As I said before, I'm not asking you to give up your spirituality. I'm asking you to dare to question it. So now it's your turn to explain to me what's so stupid about that.

edit: And don't go explaining by analogy please. That's so boring and completely unconvincing. Explain it on it's own merits.

 

[ShahJahanII]

If you can supply sample I will show you what I mean...

The conflict may arise of course but not between faith and goodwill as such. The problem lies in individuals poor/limited understanding of reality.

A sample of how faith teaches us to be immoral?
How about Lot selling his daughter's virginity in the Bible and Christian views on homosexuality? Not to mention God's order for the Jews to "cleanse" Israel of all other nations.