General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I agree - Magnetism looks better. But it may not be totally up to us. FREE has to agree to give us Physics... and they may not do that if they're still afraid of a GLET.
Preparing for a possible invasion.
- Thread starter donsig
- Start date
Hasdrubal Barca
Emperor
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2007
- Messages
- 1,441
Ermm, this is my first post in The Council, although i´m involved in the C3C pbem, you guys seem to be on top of things, so there is really little to sugest from my part.
Just a question, if BABE lands 20 Knights in our continent-island what do we do?? Horsemen? Anc Cavalry?....can the mobile shield cover all the holes....if so...my question as no point....
Just a question, if BABE lands 20 Knights in our continent-island what do we do?? Horsemen? Anc Cavalry?....can the mobile shield cover all the holes....if so...my question as no point....
donsig
Low level intermediary
As of turn 210 we have the following forces:
Naval: 2 battleships, 2 destroyers, 2 cruisers, 2 subs, 1 carrier, 8 frigates, 2 caravels and 2 transports. (Total = 21)
Air: 10 bombers and 3 fighters. (Total = 13)
Land: 5 tanks, 6 guerillas, 15 infantry, 1 rifleman, 10 horseman and 2 hwach'as. (Total = 39)
We have computers now. We could mechanize our infantry for 60g each. That's 900g for the 15 infantry. Our treasury stands at 2952g but we are also entering a phase of deficit research for miniaturization.
We currently have 13 domestic workers for a grand total of 86 units of which 85 are support free.
We have 17 coastal cities on our mainland, three on SCI and the two one tile islands for a total of 22 cities to protect from bombers and marines.
We have a partial naval Early Warning System in place. Our three fighters are based on the carrier near GONG's continent to keep an eye on the situation there.
The era of coast blocking is over so we need a new defense plan. A full EWS would help us to see an invasion fleet coming - but could it give us enough warning to assemble our bombers in place to sink the coming fleet? Mind you even if it did, we'd have to declare war first as we did long ago when BABE landed. What should our defensive land forces consist of?
Naval: 2 battleships, 2 destroyers, 2 cruisers, 2 subs, 1 carrier, 8 frigates, 2 caravels and 2 transports. (Total = 21)
Air: 10 bombers and 3 fighters. (Total = 13)
Land: 5 tanks, 6 guerillas, 15 infantry, 1 rifleman, 10 horseman and 2 hwach'as. (Total = 39)
We have computers now. We could mechanize our infantry for 60g each. That's 900g for the 15 infantry. Our treasury stands at 2952g but we are also entering a phase of deficit research for miniaturization.
We currently have 13 domestic workers for a grand total of 86 units of which 85 are support free.
We have 17 coastal cities on our mainland, three on SCI and the two one tile islands for a total of 22 cities to protect from bombers and marines.
We have a partial naval Early Warning System in place. Our three fighters are based on the carrier near GONG's continent to keep an eye on the situation there.
The era of coast blocking is over so we need a new defense plan. A full EWS would help us to see an invasion fleet coming - but could it give us enough warning to assemble our bombers in place to sink the coming fleet? Mind you even if it did, we'd have to declare war first as we did long ago when BABE landed. What should our defensive land forces consist of?
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
I think there is something else we should think about, which is what our diplomatic stance should be and how much warning we give our potential opponents.
What I am thinking is that we determine the following to be threats that may or may not trigger a DOW:
1) More than 1 transport near enough to land forces the next turn on our homelan d
2) Any transports in our territorial waters.
3) If and when any civ gets helicopters, a carrier within range (I think helis can drop units on enemy land)
4) Any cities within paratroop range of our homeland.
Obviously, only #1/2 are going to happen anytime soon.
Our defensive landforce:
Marines are attack 12, and they are the only ones who can attack cities from the water, so that's the big worry.
FREE attacked a bunch of GONG cities first turn and clearly had a TON of marines - I'm thinking we need:
Mech Infantry have a base defense of 18. With fortification, land bonus and city size bonus, they will defend at either 33.3 or 42.3 (depending on whether it is a metro or not)
If we build a civil defense, that's 51.3 or 60.3, which should make that city close to invulnerable to marine attack, perhaps even with significant bombardment.
I'm thinking something like this, with these as priorities
2 mech infantry in each of our core coastal cities.
1 mech inf in the other costal cities, building up east to west.
A force of tanks (5-10) in an internal city to react to attacks.
An infantry/mech infantry on non-city hills/mountains to discourage easy landings there.
I also think we should build a set of marines - 4-6 - that we can use to project force, but that's later.
What I am thinking is that we determine the following to be threats that may or may not trigger a DOW:
1) More than 1 transport near enough to land forces the next turn on our homelan d
2) Any transports in our territorial waters.
3) If and when any civ gets helicopters, a carrier within range (I think helis can drop units on enemy land)
4) Any cities within paratroop range of our homeland.
Obviously, only #1/2 are going to happen anytime soon.
Our defensive landforce:
Marines are attack 12, and they are the only ones who can attack cities from the water, so that's the big worry.
FREE attacked a bunch of GONG cities first turn and clearly had a TON of marines - I'm thinking we need:
Mech Infantry have a base defense of 18. With fortification, land bonus and city size bonus, they will defend at either 33.3 or 42.3 (depending on whether it is a metro or not)
If we build a civil defense, that's 51.3 or 60.3, which should make that city close to invulnerable to marine attack, perhaps even with significant bombardment.
I'm thinking something like this, with these as priorities
2 mech infantry in each of our core coastal cities.
1 mech inf in the other costal cities, building up east to west.
A force of tanks (5-10) in an internal city to react to attacks.
An infantry/mech infantry on non-city hills/mountains to discourage easy landings there.
I also think we should build a set of marines - 4-6 - that we can use to project force, but that's later.
donsig
Low level intermediary
I was also thinking about guideline we need for what constitutes a threat. I am not so sure we should publish the list though. That is something to think over very carefully.
I'm not so sure our fortified mech infantry will be invulnerable to attack. With lethal bombers all an enemy would have to do is kill one or two mech infantry with bombers to take a city. That's why a good EWS is essential. We also have to be wary of carriers on the high seas. We should check and see how far away a carrier can be and still bomb our cities. With a reach of ten tiles for bombers could a carrier remain in home territory and bomb us? Before we know how many units we need for an EWS we must settle on the area we need to watch. We have to remember to include SCI since losing it and its rubber restricts the units we can build or draft.
I'm not so sure our fortified mech infantry will be invulnerable to attack. With lethal bombers all an enemy would have to do is kill one or two mech infantry with bombers to take a city. That's why a good EWS is essential. We also have to be wary of carriers on the high seas. We should check and see how far away a carrier can be and still bomb our cities. With a reach of ten tiles for bombers could a carrier remain in home territory and bomb us? Before we know how many units we need for an EWS we must settle on the area we need to watch. We have to remember to include SCI since losing it and its rubber restricts the units we can build or draft.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
once we settle on our guidelines for a DOW - I'll make a special news bulletin and post in the the UN... that way no one can say they weren't warned 
In that case we should add a flak or two per coastal city then.
I think an important consideration should be preventing an attacker from penetrating inland should we lose a coastal city (Remember MTDG1). Here we may have an advantage as our cities are wider spaced than our opponents but it would depend on how far our culture would push up against a captured city.
Where we have a city only 2 tiles from a coastal city it would be vulnerable to a 3 move unit (such as cavalry or modern armor) on the same turn as the coastal city was captured. One way to halt a fast unit is by building barricades however as MIA showed in the last game these can be bombarded clear.
An alternative to barricades could be forests, as far as I am aware the only thing that can get rid of a forest is a worker chop (though I'm not sure what nukes do?). A ring of forests 2 tiles from the coast could stop any inland penetration giving us a chance to counter attack, we could even extend the forests to go in between each coastal city.
Does anyone else think this is a feasible solution?
Where we have a city only 2 tiles from a coastal city it would be vulnerable to a 3 move unit (such as cavalry or modern armor) on the same turn as the coastal city was captured. One way to halt a fast unit is by building barricades however as MIA showed in the last game these can be bombarded clear.
An alternative to barricades could be forests, as far as I am aware the only thing that can get rid of a forest is a worker chop (though I'm not sure what nukes do?). A ring of forests 2 tiles from the coast could stop any inland penetration giving us a chance to counter attack, we could even extend the forests to go in between each coastal city.
Does anyone else think this is a feasible solution?
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
bear in mind, we expect to bomb the crap out of an invasion force, as well.
We do need some flak, though.
We do need some flak, though.
If we got some fighters for EWS in our coastal towns, they will interfer bombers as well, right? 
planting forests imo is not an option because we'd loose lots of food.
Our EWS (if executed thoroughly!) should warn us of any transports in sight. Nice screenshots of our waters because the fog of war does not cover the observed area
We just have to resist the temptation to concentrate all forces on the first attack and leave parts of the coast unguarded!
So fighters are high priority in at least two towns. I'll start / switch to airport immediately.
planting forests imo is not an option because we'd loose lots of food.
Our EWS (if executed thoroughly!) should warn us of any transports in sight. Nice screenshots of our waters because the fog of war does not cover the observed area
We just have to resist the temptation to concentrate all forces on the first attack and leave parts of the coast unguarded!
So fighters are high priority in at least two towns. I'll start / switch to airport immediately.
If we got some fighters for EWS in our coastal towns, they will interfer bombers as well, right?
planting forests imo is not an option because we'd loose lots of food.
Our EWS (if executed thoroughly!) should warn us of any transports in sight. Nice screenshots of our waters because the fog of war does not cover the observed area
We just have to resist the temptation to concentrate all forces on the first attack and leave parts of the coast unguarded!
So fighters are high priority in at least two towns. I'll start / switch to airport immediately.
flighters will only be helpful if they are in interseption mode, recon mode they will sit idle IIRC
donsig
Low level intermediary
From the Diplomacy Central thread:
The bigger our EWS, the more units we need to establish it. I don't think (at this time) we can build a good EWS that will warn us when bombers are with in range. Here's a screenie I did up showing the area our EWS would have to cover just to protect The Beach:
Any carriers inside the red lines could hold bombers that could bomb The Beach. Any transports within the yellow lines could drop units off inside The Beach. The green boxes show some possible recon areas (at max range) for fighters based in The Beach.
The easy conclusion is that a land based fighter EWS will give us a warning about transports within range but cannot show us when carriers (and therefore bombers) are within range. In order to see carriers we would have to use ships or fighters on carriers.
Note also how that red line extends all the way to Free's cultural borders. On the other side of our lands that red line would come within one tile of SABER's cultural borders. We have alot of ocean to watch.
Once we have rocketry (and aluminum) we'll be able to build jet fighters that have an operational range of 9 instead of 6. They will allow us to see carriers in range.
The next step in this direction is to determine the number of planes we need for the EWS. Even with an air based EWS we need a strong defensive navy.
Image attached for those who cannot see ImageShack.
The bigger our EWS, the more units we need to establish it. I don't think (at this time) we can build a good EWS that will warn us when bombers are with in range. Here's a screenie I did up showing the area our EWS would have to cover just to protect The Beach:
Any carriers inside the red lines could hold bombers that could bomb The Beach. Any transports within the yellow lines could drop units off inside The Beach. The green boxes show some possible recon areas (at max range) for fighters based in The Beach.
The easy conclusion is that a land based fighter EWS will give us a warning about transports within range but cannot show us when carriers (and therefore bombers) are within range. In order to see carriers we would have to use ships or fighters on carriers.
Note also how that red line extends all the way to Free's cultural borders. On the other side of our lands that red line would come within one tile of SABER's cultural borders. We have alot of ocean to watch.
Once we have rocketry (and aluminum) we'll be able to build jet fighters that have an operational range of 9 instead of 6. They will allow us to see carriers in range.
The next step in this direction is to determine the number of planes we need for the EWS. Even with an air based EWS we need a strong defensive navy.
Image attached for those who cannot see ImageShack.
Attachments
An EWS only needs to spot land units within range of landing. Bombers and fighters can't take cities (can helicopters?), so I don't see a pressing need to devote scarce resources to identifying air units that can reach us.
But we have to be aware of any transports that are within range of landing, and this is what should be made clear in the UN: No transport will be tolerated within landing range.
Of course, as soon as we draw a line in the sand like that, another civ can get us to declare war simply be leaving a transport inside our line. We will be forced to declare war, or risk losing our credibility. Do we want to be forced into that posture?
Another thing we have to consider is paratroopers (or is it air drop?). I can't remember how that stuff works in C3C, so somebody more involved than me should chime in on this
But we have to be aware of any transports that are within range of landing, and this is what should be made clear in the UN: No transport will be tolerated within landing range.
Of course, as soon as we draw a line in the sand like that, another civ can get us to declare war simply be leaving a transport inside our line. We will be forced to declare war, or risk losing our credibility. Do we want to be forced into that posture?
Another thing we have to consider is paratroopers (or is it air drop?). I can't remember how that stuff works in C3C, so somebody more involved than me should chime in on this
Paratroopers and helicopters were ruled out somewhere else by someone else(?) 
Too slow and cannot start from carriers or transports (?)
To ban air units is rather theoretical anyway. We'd have to extend that ban to carrier + bomber movement because a carrier can enter our waters and launch his bombers deep into our land...
Nevertheless we could also demand that no carrier should (just like transports) end his turn inside our "safety belt". That would make scouting like we do in GONG land now much more difficult.
Submarines might also be subject of this ban.
Maybe we adress "all ships with unit transport ability"?
Too slow and cannot start from carriers or transports (?)
To ban air units is rather theoretical anyway. We'd have to extend that ban to carrier + bomber movement because a carrier can enter our waters and launch his bombers deep into our land...
Nevertheless we could also demand that no carrier should (just like transports) end his turn inside our "safety belt". That would make scouting like we do in GONG land now much more difficult.
Submarines might also be subject of this ban.
Maybe we adress "all ships with unit transport ability"?
All ship with transport ability works for me
Perhaps our announcement should invoke Dr. Strangelove? After all, a Doomsday Device kept secret has no value as a deterrent.
Perhaps our announcement should invoke Dr. Strangelove? After all, a Doomsday Device kept secret has no value as a deterrent.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
well, I'd put it "transports that can land attackers may provoke a declaration of war"
In fact, it may make sense to write it as such:
"The world has gotten more dangerous - war rages between FREE and GONG and continues between BABE and SABER. The peace-loving Council views passage of invasion forces past it's waters and wonders if war is coming to their lands.
The Councilors prefer peace, but we MUST have a secure homeland. Thus, we wish to pass this warning on to every land:
Transports that can land opposing forces the next turn will be considered a threat and may well provoke war. Many transports that can attack a city with marines will, of course, be considered a larger threat than one transport that can only reach an unoccupied tile, but as the world of Meleet provides sea lanes to other lands that do NOT require travel within range of Council lands, we believe that passing through the waters near enough the council to be a threat is something that is not necessary."
I dunno - that could use some work, of course.
In fact, it may make sense to write it as such:
"The world has gotten more dangerous - war rages between FREE and GONG and continues between BABE and SABER. The peace-loving Council views passage of invasion forces past it's waters and wonders if war is coming to their lands.
The Councilors prefer peace, but we MUST have a secure homeland. Thus, we wish to pass this warning on to every land:
Transports that can land opposing forces the next turn will be considered a threat and may well provoke war. Many transports that can attack a city with marines will, of course, be considered a larger threat than one transport that can only reach an unoccupied tile, but as the world of Meleet provides sea lanes to other lands that do NOT require travel within range of Council lands, we believe that passing through the waters near enough the council to be a threat is something that is not necessary."
I dunno - that could use some work, of course.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Nicely put AutoTeller - I'd vote that we go with something very much like that
First Edit:
"The world is now a more prosperous place, yet, sadly, more perilous: War rages between FREE and GONG and festers between BABE and SABER. The peace-loving Council has spied the passage of invasion fleets past its waters and has nervously wondered if war is coming to our lands. Preparations have been made, and policy wrought.
Let it be known that all Councillors prefer peace, but we will secure our territory. Thus, we make public our defense policy:
Transports capable of landing opposing forces on the following turn will be considered a mortal threat and may provoke a declaration war. Many transports (full of marines?) in range of population centers will, of course, be considered a more grave threat than one transport that can only reach an unoccupied tile. And so, the response may or may not be proportional, as there are many unknowns in the world of Meleet.
As our curiously shaped (and shared) planet provides sea lanes to other lands that do not require travel within range of Council lands, passage by foreign navies through waters near enough The Council to be a threat is not necessary, and therefore will not be ignored.
This announcement serves as a public notice to all nations that The Council wishes to remain at peace with all teams, and yet will not tolerate threats to its safety. We urge all nations to consider their own foreign and domestic policies with regard to the new world order."
I dunno - that could use some work, of course.
"The world is now a more prosperous place, yet, sadly, more perilous: War rages between FREE and GONG and festers between BABE and SABER. The peace-loving Council has spied the passage of invasion fleets past its waters and has nervously wondered if war is coming to our lands. Preparations have been made, and policy wrought.
Let it be known that all Councillors prefer peace, but we will secure our territory. Thus, we make public our defense policy:
Transports capable of landing opposing forces on the following turn will be considered a mortal threat and may provoke a declaration war. Many transports (full of marines?) in range of population centers will, of course, be considered a more grave threat than one transport that can only reach an unoccupied tile. And so, the response may or may not be proportional, as there are many unknowns in the world of Meleet.
As our curiously shaped (and shared) planet provides sea lanes to other lands that do not require travel within range of Council lands, passage by foreign navies through waters near enough The Council to be a threat is not necessary, and therefore will not be ignored.
This announcement serves as a public notice to all nations that The Council wishes to remain at peace with all teams, and yet will not tolerate threats to its safety. We urge all nations to consider their own foreign and domestic policies with regard to the new world order."
I dunno - that could use some work, of course.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
This announcement will probably have to wait till we resolve the situation with team FREE.
But since I already worked this up… here's a slightly more whimsical approach to making the announcement when we're ready:
-------------------------
<snip> see the one below...
But since I already worked this up… here's a slightly more whimsical approach to making the announcement when we're ready:
-------------------------
<snip> see the one below...
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
A full workup with artwork to boot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BldWP-V2ve8
-----
Thoughts on that?
Or do we want to stick with a more serious approach?
The council invites you into it's war room – for a glimpse of behind the scenes conversation.
We join the conversation as Council military strategists are in the midst of updating the Civilian leadership on current military readiness plans…
We join the conversation as Council military strategists are in the midst of updating the Civilian leadership on current military readiness plans…
General_W: "If you take, say, fifty H-class fully automated and computerized bombers and program them with combat plan "Doomsday thorium G," - when they encounter any foreign transports – they will produce, in effect, a doomsday shield. A lethal cloud of Arial bombardment which will encircle the Council waterways within a 6 tile range!"
Chairman Paul the 42nd: "I'm afraid I don't understand something. Are we talking about ordering the destruction of *any* foreign transports that get within range of our territory?"
General_W: "No sir. It is not a thing a sane man would do. The doomsday bombers are designed to launch themselves into action automatically if any foreign transports come in-range. They'll trigger automatically."
*stunned silence*
Niklas: "But surely we can disarm it somehow?"
General_W: "No. It is designed to go into attack mode if any attempt is ever made to un-trigger it."
Peter Grimes: "But this is absolute madness! Why would we *build* such a thing?"
Air Captain Donsig: "There were those of us who fought against it, but in the end we could not keep up with the expense involved in the island race, the space race, and the culture race. At the same time our people grumbled for more temples and Coliseums. Our doomsday scheme cost us just a small fraction of what we had been spending on defense in a single year. "
Chairman Paul the 42nd: "This is preposterous. I've never approved of anything like this."
General_W: "Not according to The Domestic RoundTable… they've already reported that this plan will be going into effect unless the Civilian Leadership directly contacted the military to stop it. The paper made it quite clear that if no response was received within one week – that this silence would be assumed as an approval of the project."
Chairman Paul the 42nd: "You know I don't read that rag of a newspaper! When was this published?"
Admiral Aigburth: "Two weeks ago. They system is now fully operational. We assumed that your silence was not only an approval – but was appreciated for the sake of 'plausible deniability'… you know."
Automated Teller: "Then you mean, we've already built such a thing?! We have the technology for that?"
General_W: "The technology required is easily within the means of our brilliant scientists. It required only the will to implement it."
Chairman Paul the 42nd: "But… how is it possible for this thing to be triggered automatically and at the same time impossible to untrigger?"
General_W: "Mr. Chairman, it is not only possible, it is essential. That is the whole idea of this plan, you know. Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the FEAR to attack. And so, because of the automated and irrevocable decision-making process which rules out human meddling, the Doomsday Defense Network is terrifying and simple to understand... and completely credible and convincing."
Attention Foreign Powers:
You've been warned! The Doomsday Defense Network is now in place to guard all Council waterways.
You've been warned! The Doomsday Defense Network is now in place to guard all Council waterways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BldWP-V2ve8
-----
Thoughts on that?
Or do we want to stick with a more serious approach?
