PreSLNES I: Masters of Ethereal

[Starlife]

Ah yes, we need to discuss two issues: Naval and Siege units.

Do you all think it makes sense to be able to design naval and siege units, or should they be traits that you can separate from your units (Naval would allow units to go across water, Siege would provide Siege but also slow the unit down).

I do have a list of naval units I want to incorporate, if they are not being designed, from order of weakest to strongest:
Longboat
Galley
Cog
Caravel
Carrack

If we were to design Naval Units, I would have some categories of traits: Range (Quality), which means how far from the coast they can go (if at all), Armor, Weapons, and Speed.

Pro for designing Naval Units: This would allow players to create unique naval units, which means they can potentially make naval exploration one of their focuses. So instead of having 3 land units from the start, they can have 2 land units and design a unique naval unit.

Con: A whole new series of traits for Naval Units, which might be a bit mind-boggling.

Another idea is to give every player the opportunity to create 1 naval unit at the beginning. I don't like this because it wouldn't represent players who are choosing to sacrifice one of their unique land units for a naval advantage.

OR

We can have boats be detachable, separate, standardized units. Traits that can be added to units to help them travel across water, and subsequently taken off the unit (the only detachable trait). Siege could work this way, too. So you pay for boats separately, but they require at least 1 unit inside of them to travel anywhere (to sail them). Each type of boat would only be able to carry 1 unit, yet the better the ship, the more weapons, armor, and further from the coast it can go. When you attach a naval trait to a unit temporarily, you mention that in your order plans. It becomes a sort of special unit. Then when you detach it, the boat remains at the coast or in a dock.

Ideas?

 

[Vertinari118]

I would suggest that boats become a detachable trait, which is built and added to a unit. In other words the second option. In order to allow players to specialise into a navy if they wish give several traits for improved naval combat. You could put up a sailors trait and a marines trait etc. Marines function better in close quarter naval combat while sailors would would move faster etc. Three or so such traits should be sufficient. Consider giving Barbarians and High Men slight discounts on these traits as they are a coastal people. I would imagine barbarians would be better sailors while high men would have the required discipline and skill at arms to make excellent marines.

Just a few ideas.

 

[Starlife]

How is this?

Spoiler :

Naval (Skills)
Sailors (8)
Marines (16)

Naval (Ships)
Longboats (30)
Galleys (50)
Cogs (100)
Caravels (150)
Carracks (250)
(These traits are attachments. That means that you need to construct the ship in a dock, which is a settlement on the coast. The ship is then its own unit, but it cannot move or do anything without another unit to sail it. You can add this boat/trait to any single unit. One one naval unit can be attached to a land unit. That naval unit is effectively then carrying the land unit. The naval attachment can be removed from the unit after docking. When you have attached a naval unit to a land unit, please clearly indicate this in your orders and separate your units without naval attachments from the units with naval attachments.)

 

[Northen Wolf]

Standardized units with players having ability to design them as Unique Units, should they wish to do so. At first, you do not HAVE to have unique naval unit but later in game, you could design one.

Also most ships should have a crew who knows how to sail, so they would not need a special unit inside of them to travel around. Of course, 100 man crossbowers unit might help incase of any hostile encounters on sea, but sailors should be capable of sailing around without any unit in the ship.

 

[LDiCesare]

Ships have several purposes: Trade, troop transport and naval warfare.
Trade should be abstracted. Troop transport could be either specific units, detachable traits, or abstracted (like you paid for some roads, you say you pay for some transports). Note transports were often, historically, merchant ships used for that purpose. Also, ships could be built for the purpose just before moving for short travels (this is much more true for siege weapons actually).
The only units I believe are really needed are the naval warfare units. These require specific personnel, and I don't think they would work well as a 'trait' attached to a unit. Even for galleys, good galleys had trained oarsmen (Athenian freemen made for much better galleys than overworked slaves). Carracks and the like need a lot of sailors, and maritime warfare requires some specific skills, so I don't think that attaching a trait to a unit is very realistic. On the other hand, it's probably the simplest to manage.
So I'd favor using the same system as for (land) units. Let players design a sea unit. You just need one trait for the category (longboat/galley/cog) that players may pick.

Regarding siege weapons: Before cannons, siege weapons were often built on-site, if wood was available. Catapults, trebuchets, were built by engineers on site. Other siege methods existed (mining, sapping), which would be poorly represented by dedicated units. I'd just ignore siege weapons except for cannons and similar units that can't be built near the target town/castle (so dwarven steam cannons and stone giants for instance, which can also have a use on the battlefield). All races would be more or less apt at besieging. Humans would build catapults (or even trebuchets for the high men) out of nearby wood and spare metal, while dwarves, goblins and orcs would more likely unpack their favorite pick-axes and burrow to sap the wall or go underneath and emerge inside the castle.

 

[Starlife]

Standardized units with players having ability to design them as Unique Units, should they wish to do so. At first, you do not HAVE to have unique naval unit but later in game, you could design one.

Also most ships should have a crew who knows how to sail, so they would not need a special unit inside of them to travel around. Of course, 100 man crossbowers unit might help incase of any hostile encounters on sea, but sailors should be capable of sailing around without any unit in the ship.

Yes, I think I will let ships move without a unit inside of them. And then maybe only have the Marines skill, which can be added to units as a permanent trait to make them really good at fighting on the sea or coastal areas.

But I will allow each naval unit to carry a unit. That would help that unit with defense and what not. The high seas are dangerous!

 

[Starlife]

Regarding siege weapons: Before cannons, siege weapons were often built on-site, if wood was available. Catapults, trebuchets, were built by engineers on site. Other siege methods existed (mining, sapping), which would be poorly represented by dedicated units. I'd just ignore siege weapons except for cannons and similar units that can't be built near the target town/castle (so dwarven steam cannons and stone giants for instance, which can also have a use on the battlefield). All races would be more or less apt at besieging. Humans would build catapults (or even trebuchets for the high men) out of nearby wood and spare metal, while dwarves, goblins and orcs would more likely unpack their favorite pick-axes and burrow to sap the wall or go underneath and emerge inside the castle.

I agree. Let's leave siege abstract. That can be another use for gold, I suppose. And if a player really wants to create a powerful siege unit, they can pump an expert magic unit full of other stuff and make it a magical siege unit of some kind. In this same vein, spells can often be siege-oriented, too.

I also like your idea on transport. That simplifies things greatly. I guess I was more concerning myself with exploration, but I suppose exploration could be implied, too? Or should I make exploration ships be a unit that players have to design if they want to explore?

 

[Starlife]

I could allow everyone to theoretically be able to explore the sea if directed, but obviously players with a special naval unit will be able to send that warship out into the high seas and obtain more success or likelihood of success than players without such a unit. Otherwise, exploration will be limited to coastal areas and shallow seas.

 

[Vertinari118]

OOC: Oh hell I've been trying to resist all day but its pointless. I might disappear at some point due to AS exams but I will try to give advanced warning and get back soon. Stories are far more likely after the exams.

Elatair/ Vertinari118
Race: High Elven, though the pursuit of magic has changed him somewhat.
Citadel: Lan'elatair (Land of the Wise and the Fools would be the best translation)
Government: He rules them as is the ancient wont of his tribe by chairing the elatanlor (the wise council). As he is indisputably the eldest and wisest of his tribe, this is his right.
Spellbook:

Spoiler Listening :

Within kingdom (0)
Large burst (200)
Wondrous (200)
Sustainable
400 mana to cast/200 to sustain

Elatair pauses and listens to the forest for a while. He hear the ancient groaning of the watchful trees, the song of the quick-minded and far-traveled birds and the growls of the pugnacious bears. He hears all and comprehends all. He describes it as merely the first step to achieving a life as one with the forest. The other elves pause and gaze with wonder. They are also careful to mind their business for there is little Elatair does not know within his borders.

Mana: (50 per turn / 100 crystal)
Gold: (0 / 200)
Castles: 0
Cities: 0
Towns: 0
Units:

Spoiler High Elven Rangers :

25 rangers
Veteran (8)
Longbows (0)
Leather (2)
Short Swords (2)
Skilled Magic (8,20)
20 gold to train, 10 to maintain, 20 mana to train, 10 mana to maintain

The rangers of Ethereal's forest are skilled archers, agile swordsmen, and capable of Elven feats of magic relating to the environment. They have been raised in the forest and they know it well.

Spoiler Elatanlor :

9 Ela
Elite (16)
Longbows and staves (2)
Chainmail (8)
Expert (60)
86 gold to train, 43 to maintain, 60 mana to train and 30 mana to maintain

Facing one elven lord or lady in battle is said to be suicide. Facing nine is such sheer madness, few would contemplate it, except dark elven warlocks, but everyone knows there're mad. The lords and ladies of the elves wield powerful magic, a mastery of anatomy and the subtly of the elven mind. They use their power in combat to sever warriors' spinal cords or nick the aorta or cause a series of micro-fractures in opponent's legs, causing them to break under the victim's weight. Naturally, as the oldest elves, they have great skill with a longbow and their staves are enough to crack a skull. Alone they could defeat hundreds of conscripts with ease if they wished to. They would not but they could.

This is not their true purpose though and they are much more at home in the forests singing to birds, running with wolves and ensuring the continued prosperity of the forest. This, over time, has earned them some friends. Fighting the ela in their home forest is a deeply unpleasant unless one has some skill in magic and a crack team of hunters with you. They are by no means unbeatable though. The smallest of foes have felled them before, when the elves of Lan'elatair were a more arrogant people. It is important to note that, while they are experts in magic, they do not use their full powers in combat without justification. They would only unleash such power if their people and the land itself begged them, and even then they would be reluctant. So far the ela have only use their full power against members of their own council who turned rogue. The site of the last such battle took decades to begin to regenerate and only two out of the ten returned, such was the furry and wild magic of the fey elves. It is important to note this was a full council split, not merely one gone rouge, and the schism was so great it sent the tribe into full-scale civil war. Those two never spoke again and promptly isolated themselves from elven society. Their abject horror at their actions that day was so great, they were soon found dead. They had committed suicide, an action so rare amongst the elves they don't even have a word for it as we men do. As their deaths ended the war, some say it was a calculated move. However the elves value all life and never willing give up their own except at the natural conclusion of their lives. The elves have a different perception of death as well which I will explain another time.

Spoiler High Elven Infantry :

150 Infantry
Veteran (8)
Sword and Shield (10)
Chainmail (8)

32 gold to recruit, 16 to maintain

The steadfast infantry of the elves. These men have forsaken the elven bow to master the elven sword. Their armour and arms are forged with the finest care of elven blacksmiths with all the skill that elves apply to any craft they master. Their duty is to protect elven archers and magic users in battle and they perform it well. Their naturally superior eyesight allows them to strike with far more precision than the warriors of other races, which aids them against more numerous foes. They, like all elven warriors, are volunteers who devoted their lives to the mastery of combat and this reflects in their fighting. These soldiers still have some way to go in achieving that mastery.

Spoiler Yelantair :

75 Yelantair
Trained (4)
Axes and Longbows(8)
Leather (2)
Combatant mount (12)
Skilled magic (8,20)

34 gold to recruit, 17 to maintain, 20 mana to recruit, 10 to maintain

I am not going to make it a habit of using flavour names except were conventional military terminology will not suffice. Yelantair means, concisely, swift running fools. It comes from an elven word for wind, 'yelan', which can also be used as an adjective meaning swift, and the suffix 'tair' which refers to a young elf, normally male, who is still seeking meaning. He has all the fey wonder of the elves but not the wisdom and deep introspection as well. They do not actually posses a mount but use their magic to move at supernatural speeds. At a dead sprint these young elves could outstrip a through-breed courser, providing they had the required mental discipline to keep the magic going. They also use this ability in combat to thunder into enemy infantry with the speed of a cavalry charge and most of the ferocity. They are shock troopers who move fast, strike hard and then run away again before their magic fails and they get massacred. They can also use their bows to harass the enemy, though they are not as skilled with them as rangers, and provide en-mass ranged support with a rapid rate of fire. They are not well-disciplined troops by Elven standards and the more steadfast infantry and rangers have had to commit before, sometimes at great cost, sub optimally to rescue yelantair who had got themselves in too deep. They are, however, incredibly useful members of the elven army when commanded skillfully. For this reason and the fact that any elf who has come of age is allowed to make his own choices and serve in whatever capacity he wishes in society that the elatanlor allow these young men to serve.

Glossary of elven terms

I decided to add this to prevent my unit descriptions becoming even more bloated.

Ela- ela is an elven word for 'wise'. In that term they manage to pack a small essay on philosophy but in essence it refers to an elf who has, though mastery of their chosen art or arts, and through deep introspection and the wild abandon the elves of Lan'elatair are prone to come to a state of what might be termed enlightenment. It is not the Buddhist sense of enlightenment, in fact it is more the inverse process. Rather than freeing themselves from the cycle of life, they come to fully understand it and their place in the world. They have achieved beatitudo in a sense or eudaimonia may be a more accurate term. Many elves achieve this state, as it is tied directly into their life-cycle, only a handful ever actually remain in it for any length of time. Most use a unique spell of the elves of Lan'elatair, though I have no problem with other elven players adopting this system, to merge with a chosen object in nature. They become the much-fabled spirits of the forest, drunk barbarian woodsmen talk of. In truth such tales are greatly exaggerated and the sapient parts of the forest and general landscape do little more than brood over philosophical questions beyond the ken of mere confined mortals. They could, theoretically, be roused though this would require huge effort and an elven touch.

Tair- to be written

Elatair- to be written

Lan'elatair- to be written

EDIT: to save from double posting.

LDiCesare's ideas are very good ones. The idea with a sailors trait would be that certain peoples in history, such as the Vikings, were renowned sailors without, necessarily, being masters of ship to ship naval combat in the same way as the Romans or Greeks of antiquity. This was due to both the types of ships and the seas they sailed. Perhaps ships themselves could be given a trait regarding crew quality and ship quality as well as type?

 

[Starlife]

Vertinari: That looks great and I'm happy to have some High Elves. It's okay if you can't write stories for a while. As long as you can get me orders in, it'll be okay.

OK, working on Naval stuff. Here is what I have now:

Spoiler Designing Ships :

It is implied that all players can transport military units during wartime, though spending gold on the endeavor will make it much more successful. Naval trade is also implied.

However, you may want more specialized warships or a sturdy exploration vessel. They can serve useful for kingdoms that wish to expand their influence over the high seas or coastal regions.

Quality
Novice (2)
Sailors (4)
Navigators (8)
Sea Dogs (16)

Type
Longboats (4)
Galleys (8)
Cogs (12)
Caravels (24)
Carracks (32)

Range
Coastal (4)
Shallow Seas (12)
Seafaring (30)

 

[Sonereal]

Does creating a naval UU count as one of the three?

 

[Vertinari118]

Yes it does.

 

[Starlife]

Yep, it does. It is to sort of symbolize your dedication to the sea. It has its advantages and disadvantages, like anything else.

Just remember that mana comes from every natural source...

 

[Immaculate]

Vert - check math on the ela. Nice fluff by the way- also i like the spell.

 

[Starlife]

Right "Expert (40)" should be "Expert (60)." But your mana costs are accurate. That unit would cost 86 gold and 43 to maintain, though.

 

[Vertinari118]

Ops, sorry. I might have got carried away in the flow when I designed them. Just as a note, I will add it somewhere into their description as well, ela is an elven word for 'wise'. In that term they manage to pack a small essay on philosophy but in essence it refers to an elf who has, though mastery of their chosen art or arts, and through deep introspection and the wild abandon the elves of Lan'elatair are prone to come to a state of what might be termed enlightenment. It is not the Buddhist sense of enlightenment, in fact it is more the inverse process. Rather than freeing themselves from the cycle of life, they come to fully understand it and their place in the world. They have achieved beatitudo in a sense or eudaimonia may be a more accurate term. Many elves achieve this state, as it is tied directly into their life-cycle, only a handful ever actually remain in it for any length of time. Most use a unique spell of the elves of Lan'elatair, though I have no problem with other elven players adopting this system, to merge with a chosen object in nature. They become the much-fabled spirits of the forest, drunk barbarian woodsmen talk of. In truth such tales are greatly exaggerated and the sapient parts of the forest and general landscape do little more than brood over philosophical questions beyond the ken of mere confined mortals. They could, theoretically, be roused though this would require huge effort and an elven touch.

Second note- mastery of craft alone does not equal ela. The elven infantry gear is not forged by ela blacksmiths. Later equipment, made from netheryl, for the very finest warriors would be. Ela is correctly used as a prefix. There is a story behind my Wizard's name. I will get round to describing it at some point.

Tell me if I've gone too far here Starlife.

 

[erez87]

I also wanted to ask. If someone has a "Noncombatant 0 cost" possibility,does the combatant one also costs half price? It's weird my boles can use speed to come to battle but not in battle with their obvious large bodies, or my centaurs to shot while on the move (isn't that what they are best at?). Also if I get cheaper skilled magic for my beastman, does that mean weak magic will cost me zero?



Camrol Steedi / erez87
Race: Beastman (Centaur)
Citadel: Stabila
Government: Camrol currently holds all power over the kingdom. He does generally relay a lot on Beastman elders for advice and ideas.
Spellbook:

Spoiler :

Wild Roar
Within Kingdom (0)
Massive Burst (400)
Refined (100)
One-time (0)
500 mana to cast.
A mighty roar of Camrol strikes deep fear into his enemies and turns them back to where they came from.

Mana (50 per turn / 100 crystal)
Gold (per turn / 200 gold)
Castles:
Cities:
Towns:
Units:

Spoiler training list :

Red Bulls
10 minotaurs
Veteran 8
Axes 8
Chainmail 8
Noncombatant mount 0
24 gold to train, 12 to maintain
This minotaurs color their bodies, armor and axes with the blood of their enemies. When seen and smelled they cause fear in all but the most courageous troops. They run into battles horns first and than wield their giant axes to break their enemies into pieces.

Black Horses
20 Centaurs
Veteran 8
Longbows 8
Leather 2
Noncombatant mount 0
18 gold to train, 9 to maintain
Unlike their brute relatives this centaurs prefer to wield longbows and light armor to rain arrows from a far and then quickly escape any melee units that come too close for comfort. Their large horse bodies allow them to carry much more ammunition and supplies while still keeping ahead in speed of anything else that does not fly or use magic. They color the armor around their human-like parts in black to hide the fact they are centaurs from enemies, so they will be confused to think this are just wild horses caught in the battle before they begin raining arrows on their enemies.

Gorgon Mistress
1 gorgon
Elite 16
Shortbows 4
Noncombatant 0
Magic Expert 60 / 60
80 gold/ 60 mana to train, 40 gold/30 mana to maintain
The gorgons seems to be made of one half snake and another half dark elf. The gorgon mistress wields a shortbow which so is highly trained to use quickly and with much damage to far enemies but when an enemy comes to near she reveals her true might. Anything that comes to 1 meter away from her with eyes open immediately turns into stone from her petrifying glance.

 

[LDiCesare]

I edited my unit list to replace axe throwers by war galleys.

 

[Starlife]

@Vertinari: Not carried away at all. I think that is excellent backstory.

I also wanted to ask. If someone has a "Noncombatant 0 cost" possibility,does the combatant one also costs half price? It's weird my boles can use speed to come to battle but not in battle with their obvious large bodies, or my centaurs to shot while on the move (isn't that what they are best at?). Also if I get cheaper skilled magic for my beastman, does that mean weak magic will cost me zero?

Only your noncombatant area gets a bonus. It is to symbolize the fact that Beastmen are all hoofed creatures who can run and move at incredible speeds long-distance. That doesn't mean they suddenly make excellent cavalry, though. To be a knight or a skilled soldier on horse is to be trained and disciplined. I have heard, "Well if you are a horse, like a Centaur, then surely you would be great cavalry." I don't think this, though. If we are born with something, we are less likely to suddenly exploit it and perfect it, in a sense - because it is familiar to us. I hope I am making sense here. So for your Centaur to be a cavalry, he will need that sort of training to use his speed in battle (symbolized by paying for the combatant mount trait) - but remember, Beastmen are great for long distance speeds (which is kind of what noncombatant mount means... you can travel around battlefield and other places with great speed... but combatant mount would mean more reflexes and an ability to charge your foes with such training).

It is similar with magic. If you pay for Skilled Magic, you are doing so with the knowledge that Beastmen either:
- receive cheaper skilled magic
- or you pay for Expert/Weak
- or none at all
To symbolize that, if they choose to be magical of the Skilled level, they are graced with such power.

So yes, you have to pay full price for weak magic.

I edited my unit list to replace axe throwers by war galleys.

Looks good.

 

[erez87]

Are my units and magic Ok?