PreSLNES I: Masters of Ethereal

[Starlife]

Suggestion: Lower the number of Guards and Mages per unit. Since they are Elite units of your army, lower numbers will concentrate their oranges like boiling wine into brandy.

I welcome a halfling brother into this world!

Bah. So many hints. I wanted his mages to all attack at once and concentrate their power and blow themselves up. But you ruined my plans.

 

[Terrance888]

Lol, I said oranges instead of energy.

 

[nutranurse]

>:C Who's that in the southern sul mountains?! Do I see a challenger to my mountain dominance?!?!

Silly (or are they) threats aside--I must ask: What is there, exactly, to restrict us from creating gamebreaking spells? I mean... magic seems so... abstract and vague at this point. If I have mages can they only cast spells that I have or do they have their own set? Would I need to define for them what they can cast? Are the spells in our spellbooks 'greater magics' and 'lesser magics' exist outside of them i.e.: fireballs, mage armor, etc. etc.

 

[LDiCesare]

As am I.. Would composite bows hold up in the mountainous weather? I understand they need to be dry to function properly

I read English longbows wouldn't have worked well in the desert either because they need moisture.
Composite bows worked well from China to Poland and Arabia. Any bow with a wet string has problems, so all bows had to be kept relatively dry before use, and the strings were coated to protect them from water.
Generally speaking, no bow is really worth using outside its native climate. There's an interested thread talking about how two-wood bows (simpler than composite but more elaborate than self bows) would be cold/moist weather specific, along with interesting notes on pine wood. Anyway, two-wood bows (sort of composite) worked very well in Finland, so I think in more temperate mountains they would do well too.

 

[Immaculate]

thanks for interesting linky.

 

[Northen Wolf]

I was wondering, how would crossbows work in foggy/rainy weather?

 

[LDiCesare]

>:C Who's that in the southern sul mountains?! Do I see a challenger to my mountain dominance?!?!

Silly (or are they) threats aside--I must ask: What is there, exactly, to restrict us from creating gamebreaking spells? I mean... magic seems so... abstract and vague at this point. If I have mages can they only cast spells that I have or do they have their own set? Would I need to define for them what they can cast? Are the spells in our spellbooks 'greater magics' and 'lesser magics' exist outside of them i.e.: fireballs, mage armor, etc. etc.

I think the moderator's the limit. Spells will probably not work as designed, depending on their power (wondrous or divine... it's pretty abstract). Starlife said several times he had a system to know exactly what a spell could/would do and how he resolves such effects.

 

[Vertinari118]

Fog screws any ranged weapon because you can't see what you're trying to hit.

In all seriousness archers laughed at poor crossbowmen whenever there was rain because you can't unstring a crossbow and thus, unless they had dry tents to keep them in, the crossbow was ruined as a weapon until the string could dry out.

Finally, as a semi-jokey comment, what is wrong with the poor halflings having longbows? What makes a halfling unable to make a bow roughly as high as he is to give him maximum draw with the bow?

PS: Actually a couple of things I have gleaned from reading up on bows and composite bows.

The materials composite bows are made from do not give them any advantage over a regular bow, the shape is crucial there as it allows a longer draw with a shorter bow. A recurve shape is vital in order to get the same power out of a smaller bow. The reason why a composite bow must normally be constructed is that only horn can take the extra stress on the ends of the bow and sinew prevents the wood from snapping in the centre, again due to the extra stress. Yew was regarded with such reverence amongst European bowyers because it was, in effect, its own composite material. The heartwood was strong in compression and the sapwood was stiff and strong in tension. Thus a longbow would not break in the heat of battle where it may be forced to shoot at a rate of six arrows per minute, all drawn to the maximum extent. Finally composite bows are not easy to make and took far longer to make. I have deliberately exaggerated the times in my own description of making an elven longbow to show the level of care. In truth a master boywer could probably make a half-decent longbow, assuming the wood is ready, in a couple of hours. There is a reason why almost all the cultures famous for producing a composite bow are nomadic tribesmen who needed a shorter bow that could function from horseback. Otherwise they are useful in difficult terrain, hence why my elves use them for hunting etc. (they are mentioned in the trade goods essay thing I wrote), or if the wood you have available is too poor to make a conventional self bow.

PPS: I have suddenly realised that the nature of the bow in this case truly makes no difference what so ever because the issue is the draw length and thus the power in the draw. A composite recurve bow is merely a way of getting more draw in a shorter bow. Thus we either magic away the problem and allow all archers to be equal, assuming they have the same weapons and training, or we penalise all halfling players archers because they will naturally have a shorter draw and thus less force behind each arrow. Slings may be a good option to replace bows as they do not depend on draw length but rather the strength of the arm and wrist, though the length of the arm does also matter somewhat. Sling staffs may be the perfect solution for halfling longbows. Google them and see.

 

[Aiolos]

Perhaps you could coat them with some sort of weatherproof oil from a tree native to your region, or even argue that the way your Halflings do woodwork allows the bow to withstand harsher temperatures.

Works for me.

Suggestion: Lower the number of Guards and Mages per unit. Since they are Elite units of your army, lower numbers will concentrate their oranges like boiling wine into brandy.

I don't plan to use the mages like that. Think of the T's as lion tamers. They exist more to force monsters to do their bidding than to generate gigantic hammer smash spells. Thanks for the hint though

As to the Royal Guards... I need an infantry unit to stop hordes from over running me. 100 men against 1000 might win. 10 wouldnt.

I welcome a halfling brother into this world!

Ah brother Tall! Good to hear from you. I sense many trade opportunities in the future between us.

Fog screws any ranged weapon because you can't see what you're trying to hit.

In all seriousness archers laughed at poor crossbowmen whenever there was rain because you can't unstring a crossbow and thus, unless they had dry tents to keep them in, the crossbow was ruined as a weapon until the string could dry out.

Finally, as a semi-jokey comment, what is wrong with the poor halflings having longbows? What makes a halfling unable to make a bow roughly as high as he is to give him maximum draw with the bow?

PS: Actually a couple of things I have gleaned from reading up on bows and composite bows..snip..Thus we either magic away the problem and allow all archers to be equal, assuming they have the same weapons and training, or we penalise all halfling players archers because they will naturally have a shorter draw and thus less force behind each arrow. Slings may be a good option to replace bows as they do not depend on draw length but rather the strength of the arm and wrist, though the length of the arm does also matter somewhat. Sling staffs may be the perfect solution for halfling longbows. Google them and see.

Well, if you want to use logic, halflings cant use a sword or heavy armor either. How about I simply spend a bit of gold for development, and have the goblins build compound bows for me? Seriously though, if you logic this too thoroughly, you start to realize almost nothing in a fantasy universe makes sense.

 

[Aiolos]

Bah. So many hints. I wanted his mages to all attack at once and concentrate their power and blow themselves up. But you ruined my plans.

Heh not the way I plan to use them. But... I will say no more.

Edit: I do appreciate the hints though. Concerning the Royal Guards, I need an infantry unit to counter calvary and horde tactics. So really, I cant make them smaller without ending up fighting 1000 to 10 odds against barbarians.

 

[LDiCesare]

Here's a tentative Culture post. Starlife, please tell me if it's acceptable, particularly the spoilered part for the background of the narrator. If not, I'll have to rewrite some stuff to turn him into a regular beggar of some kind.

Of the Barbarians of Gwynedd
A tale told by Nameless the Unlucky, spirit of the Steppes, to Nameless of the North, another spirit of the Steppes.

Spoiler :

There's a kind of curse in the south of the Norclove Steppes. At some point during its history, a human hamlet was cursed, and its human denizens were all affected by this terrible fate: They would never know death. In exchange for that poisonous gift, they lost their name and most of their skills and memories. Along with their youth and their health. Most of these spirits have wandered far away, and many don't even remember what they are. A few of them survive in the Steppes, however, to forever suffer from their curse.
Now how would not dying be a curse? Well, the spirits age. They are incredibly old, and most of them are totally insane, their brains so damaged, be it because of disease or just the accumulation of eons of memories, that they are mostly useless. These spirits look like very old men or women, and stay like that for scores of years, the eternal beggar in the city, the guy who was already begging, his mouth dripping saliva all day long, when your grandfather was a boy.
When their bodies do die, they are reincarnated into another old, weak wretch, not far from where they died. They are always aching and full of pain, shrouded in agony, longing for an oblivion that will never come, or at least the vague semblance of comfort or forgetfulness that alcohol or drugs can bring them.
Sometimes, they move to another place, and when they meet one of their own, they speak in their old tongue, trying to talk about something new, something interesting, something original at last, something that will let them forget for an instant their everlasting, miserable, existence of bitterness and agony.

At last, you're coming back from the North. Let me tell you of the people around here. You might learn a thing or two, what to do and what to avoid.
First of all, if you want to avoid a beating, don't talk to them about their gods, their beliefs or religion. As far as I understood, it is considered mortal offense here, and I got my throat cut a pair of times because of my old uncaring tongue. They worship their ancestors, you see, and each family does it differently. This often results in someone making a remark like "Hey, why are you wearing this cap today? It's not going to rain." ending up in a fierce fistfight, because the cap had been worn by his great-grandfather on his birthday and the barbarian believes firmly, religiously, he must wear it today in commemoration. But since it's taboo to explain it, he'll punch you for asking instead.
Mind you, not speaking won't let you avoid all beatings either. Sometimes, the barbarians just beat you because you're there. They always get into fights for stupid, probably religious, reasons, and they are very indiscriminate in who they fight. Anyone in range when a brawl starts is fair game. Running away is thought to be cowardly so you'd better just hide. You might also sing if you can do that, but I wouldn't advise it. Our vocal cords are too bad to try. The barbarians seem to think that a good musician should be left alone when they fight. Problem being the 'good' part. There are more singers today, so you might want to track one and stay near him to avoid fights but that doesn't work very well. First, these bards move a lot, and we can't really follow a healthy young man or woman. Second, some of them like the fights and actually sing to give courage to the brawlers. Mostly the women.

Apart from their too-common brawls, which often happen at the local tavern after drinking too much beer, mead or wine, they are calm people. If you avoid the outbreaks, you can probably limp by without too much problem. The main issue is how to get drunk far from the rest, or when they themselves aren't drunk yet. I once used to hide in a dyer's workshop. I brought my bottles there when he left for the bar, but the smell of the dyes and the nearby tanners made it unbearable, so one day I got out to breathe a bit and got spotted by his son, who was profitting from the absence of his parents to go meet a girl. The brat broke my arm, saying I was polluting his clan's workshop and I better get out of there! He also almost broke my jaw, I could hardly eat for weeks.
Speaking of which, I hope you can stand fish and crab. That's what they eat most around here now. A pain to chew I tell you, but they make some crab soup sometimes, which is easier on our old teeth. Some stew too, but they tend to roast stuff and generally take pride in showing the health of their good dentition, probably just to scorn us old guys.

And you should also get a tattoo. To pass for one of them. Most of the barbarians wear some. On the arms, back, torso, face, anywhere. And since they always go bare-armed, and sometimes bare-torso, they are easy to spot. Some have tattoos on the legs too, you can see them when they wear kilts instead of trousers. They wouldn't have believed I was an old barbarian if I hadn't had one. You'll have to do the same if you want to pass for one of them. It's painful as hell, but they say it's part of the pride. Whatever. Just get a small one on the forearm, they'll believe others are hidden under your rags and leave you alone... No, I mean, they'll pester you less.

Those guys don't really have much respect for us old ones. At least, not if you're not of their clan. You could try to pass for a foreigner of course. They like foreigners, their tales, their wares, their gold mostly. But without gold and if you just beg, they won't like you. Even begging is hard. Stealing is dangerous too. Lots of bruises and wounds because of that. They don't take it lightly. As they can't take the food you ate back from you, they expect to take it back from your clan. Therefore, they will ask you what's your clan in order to raid them back for what you stole. And, yes, you might avoid getting hurt if you pretend you're from another clan they don't like. They will pardon you for trying to steal them, as they might well have done the same, but you'll be an excuse for them to raid the other clan, and that can get real bloody. At least, that's what happened last time. Three dead for just one stolen sheep. I heard the new lord tends to police things a bit now, so they tend to kill each other less often, but it doesn't really help us. The good thing is now, with the big city, not everyone knows each other, so you might make it stealing from a market. They even throw some garbage now, so it's possible to forage some food if you can fend off the rats. Much harder to get free alcohol, unfortunately. You can always try to get near the bar after the brawl. Someone might be drunk enough to pay you a horn of beer. Most likely they'll throw it at you, however.

 

[Vertinari118]

Aiolos I agree with you. I don't object to you having longbow or calling them longbows. I was actually trying to back you up so you didn't have to go too far done the road of justifying everything. I was also trying to debunk the myth that composite bows are 'better' than longbows. They are for most purposes equal or worse, because they are more expensive and really don't like moisture.

 

[Starlife]

An excellent post, LDi. And thanks for the link you posted earlier. I have only been able to skim it at this point, but it seems quite helpful. I am admittedly ignorant on many realistic military matters involving this time period, though I have been putting in a fair amount of research. I do want us all to remember this is fantasy. If a Halfling unit has a longbow added to their inventory, let us assume it is not really the same exact type of longbow an Elf might use, but rather something geared towards Halflings and perhaps just as effective. Though I hope the player (in this case Aiolos) will explain such fluff to us all. My job as moderator is busy as is - writing the update and managing countless NPCs. Having you all discuss this and come to healthy conclusions on your own is well-respected by me and extremely helpful. So thanks for posting any relevant info and sharing knowledge with us all.

In regards to Magic. The reasons I have not made a public magic system is a long list:

- What you are using it on (city, town, castle, group of units, one individual, a whole mountain, a whole region?)
- How you are using it (could go on and on...)
- How you describe in your orders you are using it (do you tell me in your orders you want it to kill everything and anything or are you being a bit more humble? How are you describing the use of this spell specifically?)

The last one is important. You will see. Thomas has a weak spell, but he uses it (spoiler) this last turn (it won't effect anyone in the game, which is why I am mentioning it). However, he supplemented the spell with some units and gave me some directions on what to do with that weak spell. Use the weakness of the spell to your advantage. Even if something can't break everything in its path, you can supplement it with other units and what not.

And the list can go on and on under these sections. If your spell is Weak and you use it on a town - then whatever. The town, if it is not near a castle, will most-likely crumble and fall and it will be easily used on that town. If a Weak spell is used on a Castle with an insanely advantageous unique unit (and the capability to defend from said spell) - then there might be some difficulties. Terrain. Weather even. If another player has cast a spell, that might effect your spell. And on and on it goes. That is why I have no public system. I ask that you trust me, as your moderator, to make proper judgments regarding it. I assure you that if you see one player's Weak spell work, but yours didn't, there is a good reason and I'll be happy to explain it.

So I ask that you embrace the nebulous spell ruleset and see it for what it is: Insanely open-ended, to the point where the only limit is what you can think of. Now how well that works within the game is subject to the factors aforementioned. Simple spells are obviously easier to work with, but I didn't want to provide a pre-made spell list because that wouldn't allow you all to tinker with what exactly you want your mana to turn into. This flowing force that must be tamed and can be controlled to your heart's desire. Or can blow up in your face.

As for units - their magic ability should be described in your description. Sometimes it will be vague "geomancing" "water magic" etc. Other times more specific. Much like spells, the effectiveness depends on Weak, Skilled, Expert, and what you put in your description. Your magic units CANNOT use the spells your Wizard uses. Those are only yours - though variants of that magic could be used by the unit if put in your description. The more thorough/specific your unit magic descriptions are, the better - that actually goes for non-magic units, as well (don't worry, everyone is doing well thus far). But just think if you get into a battle with a magic unit and I have no idea what that magic unit can do... there'll be some problems and you may lose the battle. Be clear in your orders and your descriptions. All-powerful elemental mages can't exist as units, but fairly powerful ones can (for the proper price listed).

 

[LDiCesare]

Finally, as a semi-jokey comment, what is wrong with the poor halflings having longbows? What makes a halfling unable to make a bow roughly as high as he is to give him maximum draw with the bow?

Just that a 1m tall long bow will be everyone else's short bow, so it's not a longbow.

Well, if you want to use logic, halflings cant use a sword or heavy armor either. How about I simply spend a bit of gold for development, and have the goblins build compound bows for me? Seriously though, if you logic this too thoroughly, you start to realize almost nothing in a fantasy universe makes sense.

Indeed all games I know of would never allow halflings with longbows or two-handed swords the size of those used by humans. I suggested composite bows because they are smaller than longbows and also powerful. I agree that staff slings would make most sense. And regarding swords and heavy armor: A halfling's sword would most likely be a gladius and not a spada, but it could still be functional. And they can use heavy armor to their size without causing disbelief. It's just I had a hard time imagining this:

Now, of course, that may be feasible. Still, having to shoot from the low end rather than the middle of the bow would require a bow more like a yumi than an English longbow, so a better bowlength would probably be one and a half this size.

 

[LDiCesare]

Starlife, will you update the Wizards' post on first page with Aiolos' profile? It will be easier to look out the wizard names for diplo there than seek it in this thread.

 

[Starlife]

to the picture.

Sure, LDi. Give me a second. I'm swamped with things to do today.

 

[Starlife]

Updated.

 

[Northen Wolf]

Orders Sent

 

[Starlife]

Phew. Halfway done writing the update - and the map is completely finished (with the exception of the two players who haven't given orders). Probably won't have the update up until late tomorrow night.

 

[Vertinari118]

As I said before LDiCesare in my PPS, the issue, ultimately, is the length of the halfling arm. Say a person has a 1m long arm and another 0.5m long, they are the taller one with the longer arm is given a longbow, the shorter one a composite recurve bow. The one who is taller and has the longer arm has a longer draw and thus stores more energy in the bow and the string, as elastic potential, to be converted into kinetic energy when the string is released than the shorter one with the shorter draw. His bow allows him to draw further with a shorter bow, because the materials are stronger, but he can only draw it so far. He cannot get around the intrinsic disadvantage that his arm is 0.5m and the other guy's is 1m, no matter how cleverly he constructs his bow.

This leaves two options and I'll list them in my order of preference:

1. All archers are still regarded as equal regardless of their race. Otherwise we are introducing unbalanced racial disadvantages in the middle of the game. If the players wish to be more realistic and replace bows with a better, but more obscure, weapon such as the sling staff they may but it is their choice to do so. Fundamentally such fluff makes no difference to the game and, as this is a fantasy NES, we are all already engaging in the suspense of disbelief. If you can accept dragons, elves and magic, why not stretch that little bit further and cut halfling players some slack?

2. All halfling players are automatically penalised if they used bows compared to the other races unless they explain that the bows represent a weapon such as the sling staff or a spear-throwing device such as the atlatl but more advanced. This simply limits the options open to the fluff behind halfling races and will ultimately have no effect on game-play as long as all players are aware they must do this.