Preview Thread: PerfNES I: [Insert Title Here]

[Yui108]

1. Nanhai
2. Haishu
3. Guangzhou


Qualifications:
* Able and willing to post 12,000 words on the failure of the Song Dynasty to industrialize, despite its considerable advantages in capital accumulation and commanding technical lead over the rest of the world

* Able to discuss the role of the pike versus the arquebus in Renaissance warfare

* Able to quote poetry on command regarding the fall of Kaifeng

* Able and willing to discuss certain plausibility issues regarding your Chinese AH f(Guangzhou should properly be called Nanyue, the name for the region at the time; Haishu is more accurately described as the Wu Kingdom or the <<insert appropriate dynastic name here, based on either an auspicious word or the region the rulers are from>>)

Assuming this is your first time herew, welcome!

Additionally, what was the nature of the Timurids, OTL?

 

[Thlayli]

Sicily, Rome, Aigyptos

My most relevant credentials include copious Mediterranean campaigning experience in DaNES and AFSNES. You know most of my playing history.

This will be fun. For me.

 

[Dachs]

-very strong interest in the region, so it should make your life easier Perfectionist

It actually makes his life harder, which is one of the reasons I didn't apply for the Jürchens.

But, as you will.

 

[Azale]

It actually makes his life harder, which is one of the reasons I didn't apply for the Jürchens.

But, as you will.

Heh, but he might be more willing to let our creative juices flow

 

[Dachs]

Right, sure.

So um, how exactly does Sicilian Catholicism work? And how do the Egyptian monarchs manage the Coptic Pope and the various Muslim imams? Does Hanafism mean anything different than it did/does in OTL?

Does the incipient struggle between Alwa and the Makurian great kings have any religious overtones to it? Or are they all Sicilian Catholic? What about cultural or protectionist elements?

What's the deal with the Upper Egyptian barons?

 

[Thlayli]

Seconded on Sicilian Catholicism.

Am I pretty much in a state of perpetual war with the Muwahiddun? How powerful is the entity of the monarchy in Sicily?

 

[Dachs]

ALSO how long is an update?

 

[Perfectionist]

So um, how exactly does Sicilian Catholicism work?

More or less the same way that Roman Catholicism does, but with the Sicilian or Egyptian prince in the place of the Italian Emperor, and with no long dormant tradition of clerical independence to occasionally trouble things. At the moment, the Sicilians and Egyptians each run their own church, and have been quietly avoiding the issue of exactly which of them should be in charge. That's likely to change in the somewhat near future.

And how do the Egyptian monarchs manage the Coptic Pope and the various Muslim imams?

The Muslims are overseen by a government department run by the senior cleric, but it rarely actually has to do anything. The Coptic Church is rather more difficult, and the Egyptians have never really had a consistent policy; sometimes they try and leave them be, sometimes they try and put puppets in charge. At the moment the policy is of inclusion in government and consideration of Coptic sensibilities as far as possible - the Coptic Pope's on the Council of State. This has been generally successful, but the rapprochement's breaking down a bit as Ethiopia and Makuria heat up.

Does Hanafism mean anything different than it did/does in OTL?

Not really. A bit more liberal on superficial things - booze, in particular - but that's all.

Does the incipient struggle between Alwa and the Makurian great kings have any religious overtones to it?

It does! Distinct religious overtones. Southern Makuria in general, and the Alwan eparchs in particular, have have been the recipient of a lot of activity from the revitalized Ethiopian church in the last couple of decades, and the Alwans are sort of in the process of setting themselves up as the defenders of Truth, Justice and the Coptic Way. The other major component is that Alwa's probably intrinsically richer than Makuria proper, but since it was so messed up when the Makurians took over the settlement was extremely one-sided. Now that's Alwa's recovering, the balance is being skewed.

What's the deal with the Upper Egyptian barons?

They're barons. They live in Upper Egypt. They're the big landowners and generally pretty much run the government of the far south. The center tends to let them carry on a fairly independent existence, so long as they pay taxes and keep the Makurian border quiet. A lot of them have significant interests in Makuria, and provide some of the Norman backing to the Makurian throne.

Am I pretty much in a state of perpetual war with the Muwahiddun?

Not full-blown war, no, but there is pretty much constant small-scale piracy and raiding going on.

How powerful is the entity of the monarchy in Sicily?

Very.

ALSO how long is an update?

I thought three years was a good number, but I'm open to arguments for other options, if anyone feels particularly strongly.

Able and willing to discuss certain plausibility issues regarding your Chinese AH f(Guangzhou should properly be called Nanyue, the name for the region at the time; Haishu is more accurately described as the Wu Kingdom

Yeah, I know, but if I called them that then China would look almost exactly like DaNES China, and it looks too much like that as it is.

Additionally, what was the nature of the Timurids, OTL?

Timur was the Mongol general who oversaw the conquest of Persia and the Middle East, and his descendants wound up running Persia and the Middle East. Ilkhans, more or less.

 

[Dachs]

So how has the triangular struggle between Ethiopia, Egypt, and the Zabidis been working over the last century or so?

 

[ChiefDesigner]

Eh? "Guang Prefecture" or Guangzhou was created thirteen centuries prior to the start date of this NES and while colloquially the region may have been referred to as Nanyue and "Republic of Guang Prefecture" is kind of awkward, it's certainly a valid name for an official title, especially when you consider the capital port and presumably the center of merchant and political power is also named Guangzhou. Personally though, I prefer Panyu, if only because that was the name of the street I lived next to when I was in China. :3

To be honest, calling it "Guangzhou" or "Panyu" is like calling the federation of states consisting of Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Connecticut and Rhode Island "The Republic of Boston".

("Republic" is also a very Western idea, not something likely to have been introduced at this period of time without extensive Western contact. Political power comes from the Mandate of Heaven, not from the consent of the governed...)

---

What's wrong with it looking like DasChina? Logical political boundaries are logical political boundaries...

 

[Kraznaya]

To be honest, calling it "Guangzhou" or "Panyu" is like calling the federation of states consisting of Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Connecticut and Rhode Island "The Republic of Boston".

Yes - but don't you think that matches the character of the state in question?

 

[Lord of Elves]

What is the religious/ethnic state of the Chobanid Empire? I assume a Mongolian ruling caste?

 

[Dachs]

What's wrong with it looking like DasChina? Logical political boundaries are logical political boundaries...

Dachs-China, actually. And that's been something like a third of the criticism leveled at the setting so far. I guess people want variability.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Having 3 year turns will be interesting and slow progress down quite a bit. But that is not a bad thing. Ten turns would be 30 years or about a monarchs reign if he was particularly longed lived.

 

[Azale]

What in the blazes is Yenogretic Buddhism? I can't find anything with that name anywhere, though I assume it is an offshoot/sect/syncretism of Tibetan Buddhism?

 

[Yui108]

Ah crap, sorry, meant as opposed to otl with temur.

 

[Perfectionist]

So how has the triangular struggle between Ethiopia, Egypt, and the Zabidis been working over the last century or so?

It's a more recent development than that. Ethiopia's only been really present for the last thirty years or so, and Egypt only in the last twenty. It's mostly an Egypt-Zabid struggle, with Ethiopia on the sidelines being wooed by both. Zabid's been trying to keep its stranglehold on the west Indian trade, and Egypt's been trying to circumvent it. Ethiopia doesn't have much of a merchant marine, but it does do a fair bit of trade, most notably including its slave soldiers, with Zabid, on favorable terms for the latter, and has been trying to squeeze advantage out of that. The negus, actually, mostly doesn't really care about the sea, so long as it stays quiet [that'll last all of six more months, I'm sure], being more concerned with rebuilding the state, so the Ethiopian end is more-or-less managed by the bahir negash. So far Zabid's mostly been winning: the Egyptians have got a share of the Red Sea trade but are mostly shut out further east, and Zabid-backed pirates make even the Red Sea run dangerous for Egyptian shipping, while the Ethiopians have pretty much ignored Egyptian entreaties.

What is the religious/ethnic state of the Chobanid Empire? I assume a Mongolian ruling caste?

You assume incorrectly. "Syrian Turk with reasonably large Arabic and Turkmen minorities, and smaller Kurdish and Armenian minorities"

What in the blazes is Yenogretic Buddhism? I can't find anything with that name anywhere, though I assume it is an offshoot/sect/syncretism of Tibetan Buddhism?

Yeah, it was originally Tibetan Buddhism filtered through mystic Islam, the sensibilities of the militarized pastoralists of Central Asia, and Mongol universalism, and then ideologically hardened by the general Buddhist persecutions in India in the last century. At this point, it looks as much like a sort of fusion of Tengrism, Islam and Buddhism as any thing else. Vaguely in favour of world empire under Yenogretic rule and righteous violence in general.

 

[Lord of Elves]

You assume incorrectly. "Syrian Turk with reasonably large Arabic and Turkmen minorities, and smaller Kurdish and Armenian minorities"

The nobility then being Turkish, rather than Mongolian transplants(?)

My knowledge of Mongol conquests and their delegation/administration is lacking, sorry.

 

[Karalysia]

Seljuks also known as lameTurks.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

Yes - but don't you think that matches the character of the state in question?

Yes, but you don't call it "The Republic of Boston", you call it "New England," because you pick the broadest geographical region so as to give you the greatest legitimacy.

Dachs-China, actually. And that's been something like a third of the criticism leveled at the setting so far. I guess people want variability.

Sorry about that! I should have read more carefully >.<

If that's the complaint, I would suggest the following as an appropriate partition:

----

Song China, overstretched from fending off repeated Mongol incursions, is breaking apart at the seams. A rebel kingdom holds nearly a third of the coastline, from Shandong south to Xiamen (Amoy); while it does not reach far inland on most of the coast, there are sponsored pirates on dozens of coastal islands preparing raids against the interior. The former tributary states of Dali and Nanyue have broken away, and the hold of Song China on the heartland provinces of Sichuan and Huguang (modern Hubei and Hunan) continue to be wracked by revolts.


(Break off modern-day Yunnan as the Dali Kingdom, preserve most of Guangzhou as Nanyue, find an appropriate name for the rebel coalition on the coasts and give them more islands and much less inland territory--I trust that will be sufficiently different?)