leif, I'm not trying to be testy. Everything meta posted stands true for the Español 101 thread(s) and it probably also applies to their equivalent threads for other languages. Eventually we resorted to VMs/PMs because, even if there's less space to post there, at least because it's not an infractable offense to not use English.
Proposed: expansion of foreign language threads
- Thread starter sophie
- Start date
This is the status quo ante. De facto anyway.
Nobody is interested in this.
As there is no interest workload will be limes zero. Call it a "success".
See. this is the problem with reacting 9 months later.
Owen has come into the translation-requirement-is-a-terribad-thing fold... a long long time ago.
This is what we'd like to see (roughly):
- Preapprove languages (i.e. those with decent mod coverage - we'd be expecting Spannish, German and Dutch at least) and simply lift the translation requirement in the threads we already have.
That may very well be enough to address the grievance here. - Anybody could still post in those threads in English and have a reasonable expectation to get an answer in English (e.g. "i spotted that word i know/used google translate and i care about this boringly mundane thing you are talking about, pls fill me in").
- If need be - and that's a pretty big if - you could determine a place where multiple threads in foreign languages and on foreign languages and cultures could happen, so as to not spam OT.
A&E seems like a natural choice, since if this demand would ever materialise i'd imagine most topics would be cultural in nature (books, movies, cousine, folklore, local customs etc.).
Sorry, if you misunderstood what was proposed here.
Sorry, I did not take it to be testy. It was meant to mean that I understood the point but wasn't sure what to do about it.
I lived in Germany many years ago and spoke it marginally. It would be nice to read some of these threads and try to pick it up again. An English translation would assist me in doing so, I think.
I asked in the staff discussion if there was any forum function that would act like YouTube tags for translation, but it seems there is not. Suppose that folks like me could use a translation site to pick up the gist.
What is easier for you makes it more difficult for me, and visa versa.
sophie
Break My Heart
Sorry, I did not take it to be testy. It was meant to mean that I understood the point but wasn't sure what to do about it.
I lived in Germany many years ago and spoke it marginally. It would be nice to read some of these threads and try to pick it up again. An English translation would assist me in doing so, I think.
I asked in the staff discussion if there was any forum function that would act like YouTube tags for translation, but it seems there is not. Suppose that folks like me could use a translation site to pick up the gist.
What is easier for you makes it more difficult for me, and visa versa.
well drab, you guys stole my thunder, but I guess that's what I get for procrastinating. Takh, meta, and I were working on a more formal, lengthy and in depth proposal for what exactly we wanted and why we thought it would be a good idea, but I stopped last night and came back from work to find you guys had already gone and approved everything! As meta said, I've come over to the side that "translation requirements" both stifle discussion (as how can you reasonably expect us to start a discussion on a recent non-English article when the ante for the thread is a full translation of the article in question) and prima facie frame the conversations therein in terms of "learner and teacher" which creates a very boring environment for native speakers, which is why native speakers largely stay away from the "101 threads".
Here's the thing with translation requirements vis-a-vis "getting the gist", and the same in terms of "inclusivity" issues moderation might have. We live in a world that has Google Translate. Don't know what people are saying but want to participate in the conversation anyway? Take the phrase and run it through Google translate. You won't get an exact translation, but you will absolutely get the gist of what has been said like 99.9% of the time. Want to read the article in the OP? Click on the link the OP provides to the source article and when the bar at the top says "Hey! This article is in [German]! Want me to translate this?" You click "Yes!". If, rather, it's a matter of not being entirely sure what a specific word means, in terms of slang or connotation, then take it over to the 101 thread, that's de facto what those threads are used for anyway.
The fact of the matter is those translation requirements are a relic of a bygone era. When this forum was founded in 2001 no reliable, high-quality, free, readily-available software existed online to translate things from one language to another in an easy to use way. However this is 2014. And we have the software now. We don't need translation requirements, and at the very least we don't need them in these narrow circumstances. The mods have made amendments to nudity rules for the A&E subforum. They have mercifully made amendments to the profanity rules for videos which serve a meaningful purpose for discussion. I think the time is ripe to make an amendment to the translation requirement in the interest of allowing non-English discussion.
As meta said, we're perfectly happy to allow discussion in English in the thread. That's fine. This proposal is about more than just enabling people to practice various languages, it's about opening discussion to all manner of topics which are not able to be covered under the current rules and creating a more truly cosmopolitan atmosphere in cfc. English is ok. We'd just like to be able to have natural, conversational, and most importantly, realistic conversation in non-English languages in these forums.
Other than that, your approval runs along more or less the lines we envisioned. I believe Takh would have preferred getting a separate subforum, and meta proposed doing this in A&E rather than OT, but otherwise this is what we want. We think it would be nice if the site added an icon similar to the Red Diamond icon that indicated that the primary language of discourse in this thread is not English. But maybe that's for a time when this idea crosses beyond the testing phase and into the full implementation phase.
I think the biggest reason why we're reluctant to allow non-English posts without translations is that we don't see this as being a step away from CivFanatics as an English only forum. We don't want people to be posting in another language simply because it's more convenient, because that just creates a separate community with a huge barrier to entry (despite the existence of google translate, should someone really want to take the time to figure out what's being said). What we're primarily intending to respond to here is the desire to learn and practice non-English languages, rather than the desire to converse in non-English languages independently of learning and practicing. This will hopefully allow an additional outlet to learn and practice, without creating a separate OT or civ community. One consideration, I suppose, is that we're not looking to steal civforum.de and civilized.de's thunder. Hosting another specifically German-language civ-site community here would be a larger consideration than whether to facilitate the learning and practicing of the language.
This is certainly something which could be negotiable, but I think we'd rather see how the present proposal pans out first.
This is certainly something which could be negotiable, but I think we'd rather see how the present proposal pans out first.
Camikaze, have you learned a second language? If so, you know that it's impossible to learn how to converse in a second language without having conversations. It's impossible to learn how to read conversations (and by extension, other types of written material) without actually doing so.
BTW:
BTW:
There seems to be a contradiction in there, somehow. I read it as you're reluctant to allow untranslated non-English posts because you don't see a problem with people not using English?Camikaze said:
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
They don't want it cause they scurred of PDMA. So scury.
Moderator Action: You have no privilege for tolling, threadjack, or PDMA in this thread
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Moderator Action: You have no privilege for tolling, threadjack, or PDMA in this thread
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
sophie
Break My Heart
I can understand that, but the problem is this: People like me want to get an opportunity to practice and improve our second, third and fourth languages. CFC is a great place to do so. The requirement to translate everything into English is a barrier to entry. It's a tedious and time-intensive process. Native speakers neither have the time nor the interest in doing so. They have said as much both to me personally and on this very thread. As such if the translation rule is not amended or excepted this thing doesn't happen and we're left with 10 "101 Threads" instead of just the one.
Moreover think about it from the standpoint of a learner. If you have progressed to the point where the "101 thread" is no longer useful then having the translation rule is going to serve as a crutch rather than as an aid. If you're at the point where you can conceivably have non-English conversations with native speakers on non-rehearsed topics then the only way for you to improve your language skills further is through immersion. At this point you have all the technical skills necessary to attain fluency, all you now need is practice, and a lot of it. In real life you don't have a helpful little box that tells you exactly what your interlocutor just said, you have to figure it out. If you spend all of your time practicing your language with the knowledge that the correct answer is right in front of you, available at the push of a button, then you will never improve beyond the spot you are now; forever capable of analyzing the language and understanding literally what is being said, but never able to carry on a real conversation.
This was my thought process for this proposal in the first place. I was frustrated because I wanted to practice my German and my Spanish in a more organic manner, and found that the "101 threads" simply were not doing that. My reasoning was that the "101 threads" were fundamentally flawed in their dimensions and objectives, and that not enough fluent speakers displayed any kind of interest in participating in the threads beyond providing simple grammatical corrections. In this thread I found compatriots on the other side of the coin - native speakers - who were also disappointed in the way the "101 threads" were working out, and from their end the main issue lay with the time investiture and inertia the translation rule brought about.
The fact of the matter is you, Cami, and perhaps the other mods participating in this proposal are coming at it from the perspective of the learner, just as I was. You see this as an opportunity to improve your [German, etc.]. The problem is that this is a two-way street. You can't have language practice without somebody to practice with. We learners are invested. We have an interest and incentive to participate in this shebang. The fluent speakers at this juncture do not have an interest. They want to discuss matters and topics that interest them locally; they want to engage with others on issues that matter to them, but which they are not allowed to discuss due to the inherently Anglocentric nature and rules of the forum. That's a great incentive. We have people that want to discuss anything in the interests of perfecting their acquired language, and we have people who speak that language who want to discuss things that matter to them. However with the translation rule we have a block. Native speakers don't want to go through the hassle of having to translate everything they write, and they definitely don't want to go through the hassle of having to translate the article. If they have to do that, then why bother discussing things in [German] at all? They might as well save themselves the hassle and just carry the discussion on in English. I don't think this proposal is going to "steal anybodys thunder", anymore than the possibility of posting nude figures in A&E suddenly makes CFC "un-family friendly". Nothing changes, nothing really. This is a proposal which solely affects OT. Just because a few German threads are started in the not-civilization-related Civilization forum does not mean that suddenly CFC rises to assume the mantle of THE GERMAN CIVILIZATION FORUM. German speakers looking for tactics and discussion on the Civilization games are still going to go to civilized.de and their ilk because that's where they can go to discuss Civilization in German. We aren't changing the fundamental makeup of CFC as a whole. We are merely asking for the opportunity to expand the breadth of possible topics on OT to things beyond the US and the UK and print articles published in English.
The translation rule is the crux of the matter. The issue on which this whole proposal rests. If that rule stands then this proposal is pointless. Metatron and Takh and the like will not participate - they have no reason to. The result will be the same as it is now with the "101 threads": a bunch of learners talking to themselves and occasionally a native speaker popping in to provide corrections.
We and thinking about the translation requirement, but that would will limit us to languages that will have multiple moderator coverage for, which right now is just German.
Recruitment of moderators at CFC is a cautious and slow process, it would take a while to acquire other language coverage.
Recruitment of moderators at CFC is a cautious and slow process, it would take a while to acquire other language coverage.
Well, you see, Lefty, that is one of the main merits (from my own POV) my proposal of havign a separate subforum with its own local moderators has. This way, you can get moderators who are guaranteed to have some proficiency in the language but who will not have their attention diverted by having to police the rest of the forums. Also, if they're untrustworthy or have bad records, you won't risk them wrecking the rest of the place.
Plus (I've just thought of this one), you'd attract people who might be interested in helping propagate their own language but who wouldn't be interested in dealing with general moderation.
I forgot to answer this.
Do you for one moment think we would be starting a turf war with civforum.de or any other forums? It's simply preposterous. By the same logic, no one should ever have started any other fora after CFC came into existence. Riiight?
Now, why would people from here go to civforum.de? Why would the civforum.de people come here? Do you read your posts before making them?
Edit: Again, I'm not trying to be testy, but sometimes your reasons for not doing something simply do not make sense.
Some people are happy to belong to multiple sites that deal with the same subject matter. I belong to two forums that deal with Roman history and learning Latin. I belong to CFC and to a Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri forum. In neither situation have the site owners said that multiple forum memberships were a bad thing, nor were they trying to "steal" members from the other forum.
People will choose to belong to one, the other, or both. One conversational German-language thread here will not undermine an entire German-language Civ site.
One reason for having any such threads in OT though is greater visibility - having a specific subforum dedicated to foreign language threads is going to restrict views to a rather reduced number of travellers...
That happens already with a lot of topic areas. Take sports, for instance. I have a mild interest in sports for 16 days every 2 years, when the Olympic Games occur. The rest of the time I ignore the sports forum here, and if it were merged back into OT, I'd ignore any sports threads there, too.
The people who are uninterested will ignore what doesn't interest them no matter where they are.
The people who are uninterested will ignore what doesn't interest them no matter where they are.
if its supposed to me an offer for those interested in learning the language better visibility though is a real argument - hiding it away in a subforum only traveled by those that know its there is going to facilitate very isolated discussion with rare newcomers.
How do any of the subforums get the word out? Via signature links, PMs, and if the staff would oblige with an announcement of a new forum for those interested in non-English conversations, that would be a start.
Next year is the countdown year to the 2016 presidential election in the U.S. Just about everything in 2015-16 that isn't either political or a serial thread is going to be buried in dozens of election-related threads. What chance would these new threads have to find a footing?
My best suggestion is either to let them get started in OT before the end of this year, or let them have a subforum that won't get buried.
ori, I'd argue the opposite in fact. All threads except the more popular serial ones and the usual Israel-related rabble-rousing go very quickly to page three or more. Very few of us actually use the subscriptions page as a log-in. In a separate language subforum those threads would be always to the front and not lost in the mix.
I am not wedded to either option, personally I think OT is fine (and something I'd prefer) - prefixes do help a lot for occasional first page slippage and OT is not too bad in turnover right now with threads staying on the first page of 1 or more often 2+ days. My fear with a separate subforum is that such threads would become even more of an echo chamber than they are bound to become anyways with little or no new participation - but of course the proof there would be found in actually trying it one way or another.Similar threads
