Proposed Policy Change - the Modiquette

[Monaldinio]

But you are the very person who took the Civ4 Alpha Centauri mod, did a few changes to it, and claimed it as entirely your own. What sort of moral ground could you possibly have to say such things?

Never said something like that!
Maybe you should read ALL again!
But it is also possible that my english is so Bad...what ever...
I dont know why you get upset?!?
Did you get all??????????????????
I have delated my links and signature...all the posted posted suff. i solved that problem for all...
Further i will Never publish anything again, so i dont harm anyone again...
I only mod for myself.
You should be happe...

Few changes??? oh yea...your are right!
I only changed the Opening Screen....
and that not even Good!

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Never said something like that!
Maybe you should read ALL again!
But it is also possible that my english is so Bad...what ever...
I dont know why you get upset?!?
Did you get all??????????????????
I have delated my links and signature...all the posted posted suff. i solved that problem for all...
Further i will Never publish anything again, so i dont harm anyone again...
I only mod for myself.
You should be happe...

Few changes??? oh yea...your are right!
I only changed the Opening Screen....
and that not even Good!

I don't play Civilization 4 much anymore anyways, so it doesn't affect me personally. However, that doesn't mean that I don't care about content being removed from the site: I want my fellow forumers to have access to as many mods as possible.

I didn't mean to sound upset, but I thought it was necessary to point out hypocrisy in your case, since not only you uploaded a mod that was in large part the same as Planetfall (no DLL changes, no new artwork) without giving proper credit, but when a poster politely asked you to give credit where it was due, you proceeded to call him a "douche".

There are many people who can legitimately show moral outrage at this new policy, but you are not one of them. Now, I don't mean that you can't complain about the policy... but when your own actions in the past have been more than questionable morally, perhaps you should tone down your speech a bit.

 

[Monaldinio]

Oh guy...you realy dont know what you are Talking about.

I made a Lot of DLL changes, i creadet a whol new level/ leyer, made New schematas for this reason, i added much Python Code, i made much Artwork and so on! who are you ??? So, if someone have no idear about something he is Talking about, he should better say nothing...

My speech?!? Sorry for my rud wordS, but you realy dont know...

 

[Lplate]

The thread is getting side tracked into personal attacks (and defences). This doesn't help the discussion (or any sense of community). Try to focus on the issues.

 

[Plotinus]

Quite. We're not here to discuss individual cases except to the degree that they help resolve what policy should be taken.

It's worth bearing in mind, though, that the purpose of this is to help us handle disagreements of this kind. Most people here have, thankfully, not been involved in any such disagreements, and the policies and gentlemen's agreements we've had in place have been entirely sufficient. It's natural, then, that many people are saying that we ought not to change anything. The reason a change has been proposed is that we don't know how best to handle situations where there is a problem. What should we, as staff, be able to insist that members must or must not do? What instructions or guidance should we be able to give members in situations of this kind? In other words, how should staff resolve disputes into which they're pulled, and what rules should there be to provide them with a basis on which to find such resolutions?

We're not trying to change the way that things are done here or how modders interact or what can or cannot be posted and what rights everyone has. We agree that we've got a good system going. Our ideal goal is to find a rule or set of rules that will respect this system and maintain it, while also giving us a basis on which to handle the kind of situation that's been referred to in this thread.

 

[raystuttgart]

The reason a change has been proposed is that we don't know how best to handle situations where there is a problem.

So what exactly are we talking about ?

A) Continuously refusing to give Credits
B) Continuously insulting others
C) Refusing to share

For A) and B) it has always been handled quite well here to my knowledge:

People get warned by moderators first and then banned by moderators if they keep ignoring the warnings.

For C) it has also been handled quite well here:

Modders that refuse to cooperate and share, will most likely not get a lot of help from other modders as well.
Modders that do share and cooperate with others usually benefit greatly by receiving the same treatment.

Sharing, helping and cooperating is simply about common sense and building up friendships.
If somebody is not interested in that it is a pitty but there is simply no way to force it.

All a moderator (and others from community) could do, is to tell that person that his behaviour might not be correct from a "moral" point of view.
But even such discussions are usually futile with stuborn people.
(So I personally prefer to simply ignore them.)

What should we, as staff, be able to insist that members must or must not do ?

A "Gentleman's Agreement" (e.g. the Modiquette) is a great thing to have so people have some orientation of how to become an appreciated member of this forum.
But such a "Gentleman's Agreement" is simply nothing that can be enforced.

But please leave everything as it is considering enforcable rules.

If you start making rules that force modders to share their work or simply take it from him, you are violating / questioning a modder's right to have at least some words to say about usage of his work.

This would then automatically put all terms of usage and permissions a modder might explicitly state for his work in question.

Do you really want to have a forum where this applies ?
"It is great if you share voluntarily. If you don't, we take it anyways."

I really don't think the consequences / outcome of such rule changes would be beneficial for this forum.

What instructions or guidance should we be able to give members in situations of this kind ?

My personal advice for members:
(Basically the way it has always been.)

Try reasonable and friendly communication if it is possible.
And have the dicussion in private messages and not in the public forum.
A discussion in public much faster tends to become nasty, because people feel attacked.

Maybe even offer some support from your side in exchange.
Also a moderator could act as mediator to suggest a compromise.

If this still does not help, simply forget it.
Try to find others that are more willing to cooperate.
Maybe ask the moderators if they know somebody who could help and does cooperate.

Of course a moderator could also try reminding a modder that sharing is a good thing that everybody benefits from.

------------

Summary:

The only way to force stuborn people to share is to generally deny basic modder's rights.
And even then these people will probably be so angry, that they will not publish anything anymore.
So not much is gained anyways.

Denying basic modder's rights however will cause a lot of trouble and would be very shortsighted.

 

[Jorsalfare]

Summary:

The only way to force stuborn people to share is to generally deny basic modder's rights.
And even then these people will probably be so angry, that they will not publish anything anymore.
So not much is gained anyways.

I agree with almost all you say - except that last bit. There is a way to force a modder to share components originally made by others if he/she chooses to release a mod/scenario/derivative work:

Creative Commons license with the clause "Share Alike" - SA. this license clause forces a modder to release material (original or modified) with the same license as the original work had. Allowing Creative commons licenses would be better, because they are tailored for internet and digital use, and they are globally disambigious - unlike the term "Public Domain" which in many countries has no equivalent. Sorry for repeating about CC, but I forgot to mention the point about forcing re-released material to have un-altered license. If someone tries to put copyright on others work (which is allowed with public domain stuff), it would be in breach of any CC-license with a SA clause.

 

[raystuttgart]

There is a way to force a modder to share components originally made by others if he/she chooses to release a mod/scenario/derivative work:

I can only repeat, once this forum starts questioning / denying modder's rights, there will be a massive problem.
(If it is supported by law or not, does not matter.)

This is a line, no modding forum should ever cross ...

There is absolutely nothing to gain with that.

 

[Monaldinio]

actually this Discusion is almost pointless and unnecessary.
All who have Downloaded my mod (or other files from modders, artists) could Do with this Files what they want, and Nobody can deny. So WE are helples...
it makes no difference if someone deletes its data.
Sooner or later they'll come back to the sunlight.

 

[raystuttgart]

actually this Discusion is almost pointless and unnecessary.

Partially agree with that.

All who have Downloaded my mod (or other files from modders, artists) could Do with this Files what they want, and Nobody can deny.

For their private use ... yes of course.
But who cares what people do in private.

For publications ... no they can't.
At some point or another things would come out.
And even if they won't get legal problems, they might get a lot of annoying discussions.

But that is not even the point.

So WE are helples...

No, modders are not completely helpless as long as community and forum stand behind them.

So if I am getting in discussions with somebody here in the forum about breaking my "terms of usage / permissions",
I want to be sure that the forum will not simply say "You don't have any rights on your work anyways.".

There must be some trust between modders and modding forum.
That is why it is so important that modders know that they can rely on their forum to not question their rights about their work.
(Whatever those may be or not be from a legal perspective does not really matter that much.)

 

[Monaldinio]

. For their private use ... yes of course.
But who cares what people do in private.

I agree! I have no Problem with modders who use my stoff.

. So if I am getting in discussions with somebody here in the forum about breaking my "terms of usage / permissions",
I want to be sure that the forum will not simply say "You don't have any rights on your work anyways.".

I would like to See that to, but i think the result will be "You don't have any rights on your work..."
Many reactions/opinions Turn in this direction, Most of them are non modders.

 

[leif erikson]

No, modders are not completely helpless as long as community and forum stand behind them.

So if I am getting in discussions with somebody here in the forum about breaking my "terms of usage / permissions",
I want to be sure that the forum will not simply say "You don't have any rights on your work anyways.".

There must be some trust between modders and modding forum.
That is why it is so important that modders know that they can rely on their forum to not question their rights about their work.
(Whatever those may be or not be from a legal perspective does not really matter that much.)

It's worth bearing in mind, though, that the purpose of this is to help us handle disagreements of this kind. Most people here have, thankfully, not been involved in any such disagreements, and the policies and gentlemen's agreements we've had in place have been entirely sufficient. It's natural, then, that many people are saying that we ought not to change anything. The reason a change has been proposed is that we don't know how best to handle situations where there is a problem. What should we, as staff, be able to insist that members must or must not do? What instructions or guidance should we be able to give members in situations of this kind? In other words, how should staff resolve disputes into which they're pulled, and what rules should there be to provide them with a basis on which to find such resolutions?

Right now we have little we can use to help modders and the purpose of this is to see if we can agree on something that helps us to stand with modders.

We're not trying to change the way that things are done here or how modders interact or what can or cannot be posted and what rights everyone has. We agree that we've got a good system going. Our ideal goal is to find a rule or set of rules that will respect this system and maintain it, while also giving us a basis on which to handle the kind of situation that's been referred to in this thread.

And this underlines what we are trying to achieve. What rights do individual modders have, which you have all covered pretty well, and what do we, as a community, expect of each other and how does the staff work with that to maintain a thriving community of modders?

 

[AbsintheRed]

It's worth bearing in mind, though, that the purpose of this is to help us handle disagreements of this kind. Most people here have, thankfully, not been involved in any such disagreements, and the policies and gentlemen's agreements we've had in place have been entirely sufficient. It's natural, then, that many people are saying that we ought not to change anything. The reason a change has been proposed is that we don't know how best to handle situations where there is a problem. What should we, as staff, be able to insist that members must or must not do? What instructions or guidance should we be able to give members in situations of this kind? In other words, how should staff resolve disputes into which they're pulled, and what rules should there be to provide them with a basis on which to find such resolutions?

Personally I don't think there is a need for the moderators and the staff to do anything like that
The community did that perfectly on it's own in these situations, and always will, as long as the overall mood in the CFC community is this friendly
Until it remains this way, there is no need for such forced modiquette changes or forced modiquette rules (also, ironically exactly these changes may result in a change how the community handles this, the way it is already seen in this thread)

I mean, Monaldinio should give massive credits to Planetfall and it's modders, we all know that.
No matter how much work he did to improve it, the base is still from that mod, and they deserve at least that.
But this is absolutely known, and was pointed out it in his thread a couple times.
No need to force anything else on him IMO. No need for any big direct confrontations, the awesome CFC modding community enables us to do it this way

 

[Monaldinio]

I mean, Monaldinio should give massive credits to Planetfall and it's modders, we all know that.

I have given credits! I had uploadet a txt file in wich all modders/Artist are mentioned!
In the Modfiles was also a txt file with all credits...
The second sentence in my Thread was One Big Credit to maniac...
WHAT DO YOU WANT???
I give credits.
it's just ridiculous what's going on here!
Almost Anyone who think "i must say something" without really knowing anything about me, have posted in this Thread.
just ridiculous ...
This Thread should be closed. let everything as it is. after all that is what you really want ...
everyone who read this thread know, I'm not the only one who thinks so.
besides, it's not about me, it's about to be allowed to decide what is done with your own work!
we should concentrate on the topic. but that's probably too much!

 

[AbsintheRed]

Sorry, I didn't want to get personal with anyone at all
I just used your mod as an example, as it came up before
If the original creators are properly credited in your mod's txt files, then I apologize again (didn't check that), even for taking your mod as an example

My point stays of course. The community is more than capable of solving any issues that can/will come up in this topic
The modiquette should stay as an etiquette IMO, and nothing that can be forced on all modders by force

 

[ls612]

My point stays of course. The community is more than capable of solving any issues that can/will come up in this topic
The modiquette should stay as an etiquette IMO, and nothing that can be forced on all modders by force

But what should happen when push comes to shove? That is what I know this started as, something to deal with one event back in January. The reason it has expanded is because that one event ballooned and continued until last month.

 

[Padjur]

Our ideal goal is to find a rule or set of rules that will respect this system and maintain it, while also giving us a basis on which to handle the kind of situation that's been referred to in this thread.

The proposed change

Any Mod that is developed using CivFanatics resources or is supplied by one of its authors through links in the forums or Downloads database is free to use, without permission, as long as credit is given.

This is far to ambiguous, why not use the whole of the modiquette, surely it already provides a "basis on which to handle the kind of situation that's been referred to in this thread." and covers a lot more ground than the proposed rule change, it is long and complex yes but so are the issues that will need to be addressed.

For example what happens when credit can't be given in cases where "You dig through your folders of downloaded stuff, you find something which you really need at this moment...but you have no clue who made it."
The modiquette gives guidance on how to deal with this situation in a reasonable way but with the proposed change it would mean it can't be used because you don't know who to credit!

Or when a mod contains third party copyright.
Those rights would be completely ignored with this rule change.
Whereas the modiquette deals with issue

Please note that some people put restrictions on their work in the form of licenses, e.g. the "creative commons" license (not very common in this forum, but happens). In most cases this means you can use their work, but you have to credit them and to put derivative work under the same license. Please respect that. It's at the end free to use, so please show the courtesy to respect their wish.

A creative commons license (See Here) seems a reasonable step to take if you have third party copyright to protect, or
if you feel you need to use it to ensure you receive credit for your mod (if your that way inclined).

But because of one event, the practice that has been established and has worked well over many years now needs to be dumped?
Is that not throwing the baby out with the bath water!

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone,

But what should happen when push comes to shove? That is what I know this started as, something to deal with one event back in January. The reason it has expanded is because that one event ballooned and continued until last month.

I don't have the slightest idea of which event you are referring to. And what in the current status prevents modders and/or Administrators to do something?

This is probably why people are "freaking out" as Gary Childress says (...ironically or seriously I don't know ):
Changing rules because of one example is already quite strange... It's even worse for those who ignore what example we're talking about . And let's say there is an example that some know of ... You can't seriously want to change rules, or even discuss a change of rules, without explaining why the old rules won't be helpful to fix the example you're referring to.

So here is my question: What's wrong with the Modiquette?

also, ironically exactly these changes may result in a change how the community handles this, the way it is already seen in this thread

Oh man! You're right.
But I must say it may seem ironical but it's somehow predictable. This conversation is odd....

But because of one event, the practice that has been established and has worked well over many years now needs to be dumped?
Is that not throwing the baby out with the bath water!

That's another way to say it. I agree with you Padjur!

So what exactly are we talking about ?

A) Continuously refusing to give Credits
B) Continuously insulting others
C) Refusing to share

For A) and B) it has always been handled quite well here to my knowledge:

People get warned by moderators first and then banned by moderators if they keep ignoring the warnings.

For C) it has also been handled quite well here:

Modders that refuse to cooperate and share, will most likely not get a lot of help from other modders as well.
Modders that do share and cooperate with others usually benefit greatly by receiving the same treatment.

I agree with Ray! You can simply
1) Ignore
2) Warn
or
3) Ban
Someone when a problem occurs. Where's the problem?
Sorry If I keep on asking the same question. But again I don't see any problem with the current state

 

[raystuttgart]

Could administrators and moderators please clearly state, what this discussion is intended for ?

Because it feels like this discussion was mostly about accusations and searching for ways to force uncooperative modders to share their work.
And in order to do that, basic modder's rights and even legal third party Copyrights were questioned or even denied.
Also rules of other forums (or sites in general) are questioned, because many downloads are not even hosted here.

 

[The_J]

Could administrators and moderators please clearly state, what this discussion is intended for ?

Because it feels like this discussion was mostly about accusations and searching for ways to force uncooperative modders to share their work.

Like Plotinus already said, we wanted to make it clear how this is handled here, because...

I agree with Ray! You can simply
1) Ignore
2) Warn
or
3) Ban
Someone when a problem occurs. Where's the problem?

...because we actually don't do 2 or 3, if it just concerns modding, and not the general behaviour. If somebody just ignores everything in the modiquette, or any other inofficial rules/guidelines which some smaller communities might have, then the only thing we do is 1, because there are no rules which would warrant to warn or ban someone.
And you cannot always ignore the problems, because it might poison the atmosphere.