Protectionism vs. Progressive Stuff

AlpsStranger

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Suppose we have a guy called Blue Collar Bob. He's not dumb but he's not smart, he can do competent labor work. He currently works at Burger Joint.

Why is it that strong-arming/bribing a company for X amount of money artificially to create jobs not naturally supported by the market so that Bob makes $15 an hour making air conditioners for Carrier is #MAGA, but simply, say, giving him a supplemental income of an extra $5 an hour for every hour worked, for the same X of government money, is socialism and clearly the doom of the Republic?

I don't get it. The same grass roots Republicans and such who always told me about bootstraps and "utopia is not an option" and all that, suddenly want to create hot house tomato jobs for people who, apparently, can't make it in the natural job market.

What's the difference? The solution of keeping obsolete manufacturing jobs around just seems more messy, more polluting, and more indirect than something like a basic income or a high minimum wage. At least if we were making $15/hr at McDonald's then we could offload our pollution to the developing world, right?

Or is it about maintaining the Wife, Husband, 2 1/2 kids and a dog culture more than the money itself?
 
That would be were the value is. It takes a special type of misanthrope to care about the digital numbers and slips of paper instead of what they enable, which should be happiness. I mean, it's not like offshoring pollution, resource depletion, and misery exchange for selective wealth/power and selective hopelessness is exactly noble. Well, wait, that word...

More to the point, currency is just currency. You have to be producing exporting something of real value continuously. If you aren't making real things, yet are powerful and rich, what you are exporting is force.
 
That would be were the value is. It takes a special type of misanthrope to care about the digital numbers and slips of paper instead of what they enable, which should be happiness. I mean, it's not like offshoring pollution, resource depletion, and misery is exactly noble. Well, wait, that word...

This is a massively loaded assumption though. While certainly the idyllic family, when it actually works, is a form of happiness, it's hardly the only one. It can become a nightmare just as easily.

I also don't believe it actually can be artificially maintained regardless. The era #MAGA is calling back to is never coming back. #MAG is an okay idea without the extra A, the A is where I disagree.

As to your edit: I suppose in a sense that's true, but what alternative is there? The electorate, left, right, or otherwise, is not going to accept a massive dropoff in our quality of life, and there also seems to be no way to halt globalism. Trump isn't going to slow it down more than a tiny speedbump even if he does everything he says.

It's going to be ugly before it gets less ugly, that I can promise.
 
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maga?

And please, idyllic? I'm not a utopian. That doesn't mean there isn't value in family structures that encourage intertwining and heavy multiple adult, non-single-gender investment in children. If anything, I'd say traditional families need to be more broadly inclusive rather than more atomized, at Hygro would put it. Mothers alone with children as default and socially discarded groups of young men glomming together is not a healthy development when it happens.
 
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And put in hashtag form by deplorables on Twitter.

I want to scream every time a politician talks about manufacturing jobs. And they do it all the time, which is why I suppress the urge. Spending capital on manufacturing is a really silly idea. Instead of spending millions "saving" a plant just so Carrier can automate it and stick us all with the externalities, that money should be spent on digital infrastructure. It's a total farce that the government has as of yet not put high speed Internet in every home in America, to allow people to plug into the digital economy. It's every bit as vital to the economy of the 21st Century that people have access to the Internet, as it was to the economy of the back end of the 20th that almost everyone (and everywhere) was plugged into the interstate highway system. We should focus on that.
 
They should have turned the factories into cooperatives back in the 80s. Probably too late to do that now.
 
Not long ago, protectionism and opposition to globalization was a left-wing stance. Isn't it interesting how it flipped across the political spectrum and was picked up by the right?

Trade barriers are seen by the populist right as defending the country's economy, while wage support is a government welfare program, even when they both result in wages being artificially increased (or just maintained) for blue-collar workers. This fundamentally doesn't make much sense, but I don't think anyone's ever accused right-wing populists of having coherent beliefs.
 
People don't stand up for policy as such, do they? They stand for, and against, people. If the people hurt by globalization changes, well. You know the rest. The policies will tailor "themselves."

Quit shipping my jobs away, etc.
Shut up and deliver my pizza already, etc.
Black areas of cities have thug problems, etc.
Kids who perform less well in school deserve less in life, etc.
 
Not long ago, protectionism and opposition to globalization was a left-wing stance. Isn't it interesting how it flipped across the political spectrum and was picked up by the right?

It still is a left-wing stance. The "liberals" who embraced globalization were only those "third way left" that the rest of the left always called phony because they embraced globalization and "business friendliness". Turns out that the critics were right: globalization reduced the political power, and worsened the lives, of workers.

Trade barriers are seen by the populist right as defending the country's economy, while wage support is a government welfare program, even when they both result in wages being artificially increased (or just maintained) for blue-collar workers. This fundamentally doesn't make much sense, but I don't think anyone's ever accused right-wing populists of having coherent beliefs.

In the US the "right" descended from "populists" more than a century ago, did it not? I know what left and right originally meant, and I know what it means in (most of) Europe, but what does left and right mean there? Roosevelt's policies kind of turned the split into a unregulated big business vs. state intervention and workers rights., with all the political and social consequences of either option. And following the New Deal almost everyone kind of agreed on some kind of welfare state. Then a new generation that took over power in the 90s threw that away - in both main parties! And let another shift in policies and society on as big a scope as the new deal had been.
What is going on there now seems to me another of those big shifts, not back on the opposite direction. One that a portion of the wealthy elite fights against, inside either party and with all the tools of influence they have, but one that is happening nevertheless.
 
In the US the "right" descended from "populists" more than a century ago, did it not?
Not really. The populists were on the left of American politics and fed into the Democratic and Socialist parties, its just that they were basically agrarian and primarily Western, so ended up marginalised on a left that became dominated by progressives, labour unions and, later, civil rights activists, and by the North-East and Midwest. Republican claims to the populist legacy rely on the geographical coincidence that the populist heartlands out in the big flat rectangle states are now mostly Republican-voting, rather than any real political continuity.
 
In the US the "right" descended from "populists" more than a century ago, did it not? I know what left and right originally meant, and I know what it means in (most of) Europe, but what does left and right mean there? Roosevelt's policies kind of turned the split into a unregulated big business vs. state intervention and workers rights., with all the political and social consequences of either option. And following the New Deal almost everyone kind of agreed on some kind of welfare state. Then a new generation that took over power in the 90s threw that away - in both main parties! And let another shift in policies and society on as big a scope as the new deal had been.
What is going on there now seems to me another of those big shifts, not back on the opposite direction. One that a portion of the wealthy elite fights against, inside either party and with all the tools of influence they have, but one that is happening nevertheless.
Populists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were left wing (but not quite socialist) on economic issues, and were also disproportionately religious and prohibitionist. They were broadly the rural counterparts of the labor unions and socialists in industrial areas. The current right didn't descend from the populists - the populists folded into the Democratic Party with the three-time loss of my favorite creationist around the turn of the 20th century. Despite his failure, the sorts of things he advocated - with fiat money (domestically, anyway) in place of free silver - would eventually be adopted by the Dems under FDR, years after Bryan's death immediately following his Pyrrhic victory in the Scopes Monkey Trial.

The word "populist" is really nebulous nowadays - it's a useful word despite its vagueness, but it can be used to describe just about anything that sets up a "the people vs. the elites" dichotomy and takes the side of "the people", whether Trump or Sanders or Perot or whatever.

US right-wing populists break with neoliberal right-wingers (e.g. Reagan and both Bushes) in opposing globalization and high levels of immigration, and they have a strong emphasis on "law and order" and are generally socially conservative (or at least pretend to be, in Trump's case). It must also be said that they are disproportionately racist; it's not necessarily that most right-wing populists are racists, but most racists are right-wing populists. On the flip side, there is generally a skepticism of foreign interventionism for "responsibility to protect" and "nation building" reasons, which is a welcome break from the neoconservatives and liberal interventionists. But they also believe in responding ruthlessly to perceived threats, which is why Trump's foreign policy is a crapshoot - it would take a single significant incident to make the difference between better than Obama and worse than Bush, whereas Hillary Clinton was virtually guaranteed to be worse than Obama and better than Bush. But on most issues (excepting trade) that matter to the Republican Randroid elite, Trump et al. are willing to go along with the party line. That's why Ryan and Trump have a functional (if uneasy) working relationship right now.

Ever since the neoliberal revolution in the 1980s and 1990s, our politics have become obsessed with social issues. The Democrats do support the existence of a reasonably functional welfare state while most Republicans are ideologically opposed to having much of one, but until the start of this year we really hadn't seen much in the way of a debate on economic issues - it was Third Way Clintonism all the way, with debates focusing on social issues, even though the Democrats actually in power took moderate-to-conservative positions on these until they perceived that things had shifted enough that they could get away with being social liberals (see, e.g., Obama and both Clintons mysteriously "evolving" on same-sex marriage right after Gallup started reporting majorities in favor of it). In communities of educated liberals, you see the bleeding edge of social liberalism in the form of SJWs and whatnot, and then it slowly creeps into the mainstream liberals' worldview until it's finally adopted by the mainstream center-left parties of the world. Economic issues, except as they relate to race/gender/sexuality, are always conspicuously absent.

One of the political developments of the last few years that I find both insane and unremarked upon is how the left-wing opposition to the institutions of global capitalism (the EU, NAFTA, the TPP, TTIP, the WTO, etc.) collapsed across the Western world in the last decade or so, and the void was filled by right-wing populists. The thing is that neoliberal globalism is, for all its flaws, multicultural and anti-racist. As the left has turned its back on the "basket of deplorables" in their native countries, the multinational capitalist institutions have started appealing to them. That's why globalization has appeared to flip across the political spectrum. I agree with you that it's actually a left-wing concern, but you wouldn't know that to read political pieces in the UK before the Brexit vote, or the US before Trump's election.

Ultimately, the problem comes down to the fact that national borders and the enforcement thereof really are a bulwark against the reduction of developed country working classes to Third World conditions. Once you expose them to truly international competition, the fact that the planet is full of desperate people looking to make $2-10/day is a huge threat to workers hoping to hold onto jobs paying $10-15/hr in the developed world. And yet, in the paradigm that appeals to modern leftists and businessmen alike, there is no good reason that national borders should result in Gary from Gary, Indiana earning many times what his counterpart in Vietnam or Bangladesh makes. So there's no justification to not let the entitled people across the US Rust Belt, northern England, and Wales rot. California, NYC, and London are all doing great, so there's no excuse for those burdens on society. Right?

There's this mostly-accurate perception in the Rust Belts and Little Englands of the world that the left has sold out the working classes, crucifying them on a cross of multiculturalism. They then bury the sword even deeper by calling them all racists and bigots, which actually helps to bring about further racism and bigotry among these people. This also helps to deepen zero-sum thinking, so that they end up opposing welfare systems, in large part because they're perceived (this time less accurately) to result in disproportionate benefits to poor minorities at the expense of blue-collar workers. The opportunists in the Republican Party and their counterparts worldwide are all too eager to fan those flames, crushing the welfare state far more than a strict self-interest perspective would imply, and leading the Democrats to further write them off as idiots who clearly don't see what's best for them.

Within the US, the picture looks something like this. The old Democratic base in the working class had been broadly left of the Democratic mainstream on economic issues but right on social issues, and were induced to defect to the Republicans in a long process starting with Nixon's Southern Strategy and running all the way through Trump and the loss of the Rust Belt. The Democrats (inadvertently?) collaborated with them by favoring the technocratic-managerial upper middle class from the 1970s on, more or less voluntarily suffering electoral losses to push their interests. This would evolve into the Democratic Party's version of neoliberalism in the 1980s and 1990s and is typified by the Silicon Valley, Manhattan, Cambridge MA, and DC types today. Notably, these were the only people who were particularly enthusiastic about Hillary Clinton; she also won most minority populations in the primaries but suffered from low turnout and unexpectedly poor results from the ones who did vote in the general election. If you look at electoral maps by county, you'll see that there is a major vote swing from the Dems to Trump in most of the country, except for the relatively few places that have won out (e.g. most of California, along with rich suburbs everywhere)*. Thomas Frank's book Listen, Liberal does a good job of chronicling how this happened, and I highly recommend to both Clintonist liberals and to left-wing anti-globalists like you.

Enter Bernie Sanders. This guy actually pulled off something very interesting, and inspiring to the likes of me and whoever thinks similarly: he united the remainder of the Rust Belt working class that was still with the Democratic Party with left-wing college types. The Democratic Party establishment clearly didn't think this could happen: Sanders was supposed to win only the college types and lose every primary outside of Vermont, which is why he was allowed to run as Clinton's supposed-to-be-token opposition. I don't know if this is a flash in the pan or if it will turn into a real movement, but there's some reason to believe it might work on the national level. If a Democrat were to come along who could connect the decline of the white working class (lots of drug abuse and suicide), with the decline of the black working class in the same area about 20 years beforehand (lots of drug abuse and homicide), with the general belief of the young of all races that they are going to be the first generation in the last 8 or so to be worse off than their parents in every meaningful way, then they would be utterly unstoppable. Sanders put two of these three ingredients together, and there is some chance that someone could pull off all three while also not saying politically taboo words like "socialist". I think that it's more likely that this doesn't happen in 2020 than that it does, but I'm willing to fight for whomever shows the most signs of pulling it off.

*edit: Just noticed I forgot to finish this sentence. The stuff after "you'll see that..." and before the start of the next sentence is new.
 
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Why is it that strong-arming/bribing a company for X amount of money artificially to create jobs not naturally supported by the market so that Bob makes $15 an hour making air conditioners for Carrier is #MAGA, but simply, say, giving him a supplemental income of an extra $5 an hour for every hour worked, for the same X of government money, is socialism and clearly the doom of the Republic?

In the first case, Bob does not actually get most of the government money, because the factory owner will want to use the government money to streamline and automate his processes. In a few years, Bob's skills are not necessary any more and he will be going back to the Burger Joint. In the second case, Bob would be getting the money, and that would be the doom the Republic (i.e. a minor inconvenience for rich people who would not be getting as much money as they could).
 
Suppose we have a guy called Blue Collar Bob. He's not dumb but he's not smart, he can do competent labor work. He currently works at Burger Joint.

That's probably part of what you're not understanding, right there. Competent labor work is not at a burger joint. Let me tell you something, I know what competent labor work is. Following a short stint in the military, I worked in construction for years. There were periods in the last 22 years I couldn't work in construction because no work was available, so I did what I could, where I could, when I could, to keep myself busy. Some parts of that time I've worked as a bar or gentleman's club doorman/security, I've chased after garbage trucks to dump in the neighborhood cans, I've worked in landscaping, I've been an orderly at a hospital, I've enterprised as a snow shoveler... I've walked alot of roads. You can't tell me about how hard it is to get through.

You also can't tell me a person working at a burger joint for (x) years, 30 hours a week, is competent labor. I'm not going to accept that. I'm going to tell you you're blowing smoke. People have the wrong idea of this type of thing in today's world and this sordid expectation it's the responsibility of everyone else to make sure they eat, that their kids eat, that they have a car and a cell phone and can eat at restaurants 10 times a week. That's unreasonable. Completely unreasonable. I don't want to sound too mean, so I'll stop for now.
 
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Why do you feel comfortable classifying someone else's labor as "competent?" I could just as easily posit a trained monkey doing construction. Measuring cutting and hammering? How taxing!

The reality is that a burger joint salary doesn't pay enough on its own for one to purchase basic housing and food on. Do you have an economic reason for believing this is acceptable, or is it purely a function of you looking down on types of low-skill work other than the low skill work you do yourself?
 
That's probably part of what you're not understanding, right there. Competent labor work is not at a burger joint. Let me tell you something, I know what competent labor work is. Following a short stint in the military, I worked in construction for years. There were periods in the last 22 years I couldn't work in construction because no work was available, so I did what I could, where I could, when I could, to keep myself busy. Some parts of that time I've worked as a bar or gentleman's club doorman/security, I've chased after garbage trucks to dump in the neighborhood cans, I've worked in landscaping, I've been an orderly at a hospital, I've enterprised as a snow shoveler... I've walked alot of roads. You can't tell me about how hard it is to get through.
So because you've had like fifty crappy jobs, this hypothetical guy's one crappy job is somehow a mark of shame? What's the reasoning behind that one?
 
Nope, not falling for it. Not gonna be mean.
Why do you feel comfortable classifying someone else's labor as "competent?" I could just as easily posit a trained monkey doing construction. Measuring cutting and hammering? How taxing!

Yehhh. heh. k.

I think the best option is to just consider it my opinion.
 
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The whole purpose of discussion is to try to understand the reasoning behind people's opinions. If your reasoning is demeaning to people that hold certain types of low wage jobs, and you recognize it as such to the point you don't want to share it, then perhaps your opinion is not a good one to hold.
 
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