Protective Trait-- Underrated?

[blitzkrieg1980]

I was only talking about capitulation vs. total takeover of civs. I was saying that I'm more likely to just overrun the enemy entirely on Standard and smaller maps since the border troubles / cultural revolts suck and I like to maximize my city outputs as much as possible. On large / huge maps, I'm much more likely to take capitulates to speed along a Domination victory since there is more land to get and more civs to get it from(even though the % is less).

I was just saying that a war that takes 20 turns on Marathon will advance the game 40 years and the same length (turnwise) war on Normal would advance the game 100 years. Whether or not it still takes 10 turns for the AI to allow you to re-declare or whatever, the game still advances much faster on Normal. This is why you can obsolete your muskets with Riflemen in a normal game before you are able to fully utilize them.

And AFAIR your final game score depends on what year it is.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I don't think the gameyear affects many things at all in the game except the doubling of culture from buildings after 1000years (please remind me if I'm forgetting something obvious).

Also, blitzkrieg, the years per turn rate changes several times throughout the game at each speed. I'm not sure why you're even mentioning the year/turn rate comparison.

And... If I remember correctly the end game score depends on turns remaining, not the year.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I think we're really beating a dead horse here. In the early game, when a normal turn is like 20 years, it's like 5 years on Marathon. So, if I go to war for 50 turns, that's 1000 years on normal, 250 years on Marathon. So if I declare at 2000BC, the war ends in 1000BC (normal) or 1750BC (marathon). There is more game to be played on Marathon.

The original post regarding years had to do with taking capitulates or taking the entire civ for yourself. Since a 20 turn war on a quick game would take you so much further into the game (closer to 2050), I'm more likely to take a capitulate on turn 8 and move onto a new target in a quick game. Whereas on a marathon game, it may be worth it to go the 12 turns extra to get the rest of the enemy cities since the game won't be nearly as close to 2050 as on quick.

That was the only thing I was trying to say. I'm not sure why we all went on this diatribe about years vs. turns.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Actually capitulation is based on turns not years, another thing that is unbalanced in favour of the slower speeds.

It's based on neither. It's based on power ratio and war success, with a side helping of garbage power ratio averaging and "land target" consideration.

 

[oyzar]

It's based on neither. It's based on power ratio and war success, with a side helping of garbage power ratio averaging and "land target" consideration.

Sure but if you have sufficient war success it depends on turns...

 

[CivCorpse]

Actually capitulation is based on turns not years, another thing that is unbalanced in favour of the slower speeds.

One of the reasons I turn vassals off.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

It's not really based on turns at all. It's entirely based on power ratio and war success, with a side helping of garbage power ratio averaging and "land target" consideration. Just like TheMeInTeam said. To say that

sure but if you have sufficient war success it depends on turns...

is kind of unnecessary. The entire game depends on success with respect to all facets. If you are successful at city specialization and tile improvements, then you will tech faster. If you are successful at using specialists, you will pop more GPs and the kind you want. They depend on tile improvements and specialists respectively, not turns even though you could break it down to be that general.

 

[Munch]

One of the reasons I turn vassals off.

That and the way it has such a large, unwanted (broken?) impact on the gameplay.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sure but if you have sufficient war success it depends on turns...

Yeah, like ONE turn if you murder their SoD and it was a decent size. I've had it happen the turn after I declare, more than once. Of course it depends on your own power too...but the point is if you wipe out like 30 units on turn 1 or 2 of the war (and lose like 2-3), and you have enough land/pop to hold the vassal, you might very well have a vassal by the next turn (edit: for example I declared on someone in neutral territory to totally backstab them mid-war, killed a large # of units, and had a vassal by next turn without even entering their borders!).

It works that if they don't have a SoD and you rapidly grab 3-4 of their cities with mounted, too. If the power lead is great enough you can have a vassal in like 5 turns...so no, the capitulation has nothing to do with # of turns outside the "refuses to talk" mechanic...although most civs have an amazing turnaround on their pouting once you start bending them over...

Point is it has *nothing* to do with turn count, other than the difficulty associated with marching through enemy territory if they don't send a stack your way...or if you need to capture enough land/pop to hold them.

 

[CivCorpse]

A question for Obsolete and other wall whipping experts. Is there a limit to the number of chops you can collect gold from if you time them all to finish on the turn you whip? Let's say i have 5 forests that will be chopped on the exact turn I whip the walls. Will all 5 forests be converted to gold at the 3times rate with stone and protective?
Also if i have stone will i still be able to get gold from whipping walls with 1 hammer left before completion with a non protective leader? Granted it will not be at the same rate but it should equal the rate of return for wall whipping as a protective leader without stone.

 

[Munch]

Also if i have stone will i still be able to get gold from whipping walls with 1 hammer left before completion with a non protective leader? Granted it will not be at the same rate but it should equal the rate of return for wall whipping as a protective leader without stone.

Yes, it's not directly linked to being protective / having stone / building walls, as far as I am aware. I'm pretty sure I've got hammers converted to gold from whipping a granary or a barracks or something before.

You get your hammers converted to gold once you produce too many to overflow (think missed wonders), it's just that with protective and stone this is also easy to achieve whipping walls.

 

[CivCorpse]

Yes, it's not directly linked to being protective / having stone / building walls, as far as I am aware. I'm pretty sure I've got hammers converted to gold from whipping a granary or a barracks or something before.

You get your hammers converted to gold once you produce too many to overflow (think missed wonders), it's just that with protective and stone this is also easy to achieve whipping walls.

Wonder gold is different than wall whip gold. With a missed wonder you get gold for every hammer invested. As I understand the game mechanic, overflow is capped at the cost of the item built/whipped rather than the next item being built. With a wonder the gold is based on the fact the wonder can no longer be produced. I wonder if this is the case with nonwonder buildings as well. Could I whip a monument just as I discover Astronomy and recieve cash as well?

Also do OR and forges apply to whip gold? If so, is it worth it to wait until mathematics, OR and forges to whip walls? I would think staggerring the whips as you need them would be the best scenario. Especially if an AI has currency to reduce the begging and subsequent diplo hits for saying no.
If OR and forges apply to the amount of gold, then whipping a monument with 1 hammer to go just before astronomy might be worth the 1 pop spent.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Wonder gold is different than wall whip gold. With a missed wonder you get gold for every hammer invested. As I understand the game mechanic, overflow is capped at the cost of the item built/whipped rather than the next item being built. With a wonder the gold is based on the fact the wonder can no longer be produced. I wonder if this is the case with nonwonder buildings as well. Could I whip a monument just as I discover Astronomy and recieve cash as well?

Also do OR and forges apply to whip gold? If so, is it worth it to wait until mathematics, OR and forges to whip walls? I would think staggerring the whips as you need them would be the best scenario. Especially if an AI has currency to reduce the begging and subsequent diplo hits for saying no.
If OR and forges apply to the amount of gold, then whipping a monument with 1 hammer to go just before astronomy might be worth the 1 pop spent.

As far as I know, it alllllllllllll counts. Stone, PRO, forges, OR, even worldbuilder'd factories (or wait, don't walls obsolete in being able to construct @ rifling?). It would be pretty easy to test based on the gold you get back. Seeing the amounts people derive, I'm pretty sure it all counts.

 

[CivCorpse]

As far as I know, it alllllllllllll counts. Stone, PRO, forges, OR, even worldbuilder'd factories (or wait, don't walls obsolete in being able to construct @ rifling?). It would be pretty easy to test based on the gold you get back. Seeing the amounts people derive, I'm pretty sure it all counts.

Walls obsolete ate rifling, however you do not need rifling for assembly line and factories. You just need it for infantry. I know you are a tree hugging peace freak so the prerequisites for military units are probably unfamiliar to you.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Walls obsolete ate rifling, however you do not need rifling for assembly line and factories. You just need it for infantry. I know you are a tree hugging peace freak so the prerequisites for military units are probably unfamiliar to you.

Especially walls. Who needs walls? You can't hold hands with your neighbors if you build them because they get in the way! Why would I EVER want to make them then ?

And I've only heard about rifling in rumors. What's it do? I hear it might be a pre-req for a space race or something but I always play for diplo.

 

[obsolete]

Let's say i have 5 forests that will be chopped on the exact turn I whip the walls. Will all 5 forests be converted to gold at the 3times rate with stone and protective?
Also if i have stone will i still be able to get gold from whipping walls with 1 hammer left before completion with a non protective leader? Granted it will not be at the same rate but it should equal the rate of return for wall whipping as a protective leader without stone.

If going to the last hammer, the whip for a non-protective (with stone) will return 11g and 25 hammers. For each tree that goes in, an additional 40 gold comes out, but the hammers stay capped at 25. Once you get math, the gold increases to 60 per forest, and the hammers still stay capped at 25. Even using 5 forests in one shot hits no limit.

As for the protective leader, (who doesn't have stone), the values are the exact same relatively speaking.

Ok ok, there is a slight adjustment because the inherent trait prevents odd value numbers from being put into a wall. This is due to the doubler effect and how any odd number multiplied by an even number always ends up being an even number.

Now.. When you get to Protective with stone... you get 60 per forest, and only 16 caped hammers total. However, with math the gold increases to 90 per forest.

A protective with stone = around 16 hammers and 41 gold for the whip, and an extra 90 gold per forest.

So with 1 whip and five forests you end up with 16h and 491 gold.

 

[DanF5771]

Get Dresden's unofficial patch and all of this pro-stone-wall-chop-whip-CASH-nonsense comes to an end .

 

[UncleJJ]

Get Dresden's unofficial patch and all of this pro-stone-wall-chop-whip-CASH-nonsense comes to an end .

You still get 1 gold per base hammer for the overflow, it's just the excess gold from the 100% Prot and 100% stone multipliers that are corrected. You can still chop a tree for 30 gold and whip a pop for 30 gold but that doesn't seem as attractive . This means that it is better to use hammers from whips and chops to dummy build wonders with a resource bonus which typically gives double the return from building wealth.

The best reason for getting Dresden's unofficial patch is the fix for the spread culture spy mission. Most people don't realise that the 3.17 patch broke that mission.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Get Dresden's unofficial patch and all of this pro-stone-wall-chop-whip-CASH-nonsense comes to an end .

lol I was wondering why, when I tried it, it seemed way less useful that people claimed it to be. I think I only got 1 for each that I chopped - not the supposed 3. 'Twas a waste of forests really.

 

[CivCorpse]

If going to the last hammer, the whip for a non-protective (with stone) will return 11g and 25 hammers. For each tree that goes in, an additional 40 gold comes out, but the hammers stay capped at 25. Once you get math, the gold increases to 60 per forest, and the hammers still stay capped at 25. Even using 5 forests in one shot hits no limit.

As for the protective leader, (who doesn't have stone), the values are the exact same relatively speaking.

Ok ok, there is a slight adjustment because the inherent trait prevents odd value numbers from being put into a wall. This is due to the doubler effect and how any odd number multiplied by an even number always ends up being an even number.

Now.. When you get to Protective with stone... you get 60 per forest, and only 16 caped hammers total. However, with math the gold increases to 90 per forest.

A protective with stone = around 16 hammers and 41 gold for the whip, and an extra 90 gold per forest.

So with 1 whip and five forests you end up with 16h and 491 gold.

With OR and a forge do I get 135gold per forest?