Questions for George Zimmerman supporters.

[JohnRM]

It should be noted that Zimmerman was cleared by virtue of lack of evidence NOT affirmation of what truly occurred that night. It is just as unfair to say that Martin attacked Zimmerman as it is for others to say that Zimmerman murdered Martin because he's racist. Neither side of the story is proven. Neither side is officially guilty of a crime.

 

[MobBoss]

It should be noted that Zimmerman was cleared by virtue of lack of evidence NOT affirmation of what truly occurred that night. It is just as unfair to say that Martin attacked Zimmerman as it is for others to say that Zimmerman murdered Martin because he's racist. Neither side of the story is proven. Neither side is officially guilty of a crime.

I don't think Zimmerman broke his own nose or pounded his own head on the pavement. Do you?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Plus, Zimmerman wasn't exactly beaten to a pulp.

That is quite an understatement. There is even strong evidence that he may have only been punched in the face once based on the abrasions on Martins hands and his actual injuries. He certainly wasn't repeatedly beaten in the face as he lied in his statements to the police.

The entire encounter only took a bit over 40 seconds, and at least part of it occurred while they were standing up wrestling with each other right where Martin's body was found, and completely contrary to even more lies that Zimmerman stated. Much of the time they were apparently rolling around, sometimes with Martin on top and other times when Zimmerman was. After all, Zimmerman outweighed him by 40 pounds and had over a year of MMA training, much of it in grappling. Zimmerman had a distinct advantage under those circumstances. He should have been able to deal with Martin until the police arrived without shooting him.

Then there are the discrepancies in his testimony regarding where Martin was located in relation to his gun, and how completely inconceivable it was to suggest that Zimmerman could have grabbed it when he did, much less that Martin was trying to do so, just as it was equally inconceivable Martin would have even been able to see it being underneath Zimmerman inside his pants and behind Martin. It is far more plausible that the gun was out long before, and that Martin was literally fighting for his own life knowing that Zimmerman was trying to shoot him.

The other possibility is as the prosecution suggested. That Martin was actually getting up from on top of Zimmerman when he finally had the opportunity to reach his gun and shoot him at point blank range directly through the heart.

One thing is certain. The gun didn't magically appear in his hand from his holster underneath him while he was on the ground with Martin's knees pressing into his armpits as he claimed.

 

[JohnRM]

I don't think Zimmerman broke his own nose or pounded his own head on the pavement. Do you?

Neither did Martin shoot himself in the chest. If you can shoot someone in self-defense, so too can you punch someone. It works both ways.

My suspicion is that Martin was the aggressor, but it is NOT proven.

 

[timtofly]

He attacked and was beating Zimmerman to a pulp. Z acted in self defense. Killing in self-defense is justified in our country.

Or would you rather be charged for murder if you killed someone that was beating you to death?

I think there are some that indeed want to make this about race; however, even the FBI report indicates that racism was not a factor in this at all.

That was Zimmerman's account. Something about M coming out of the shadows, yelling at him.

Martin's "account" was him asking Z why are you following me, hardly a question that starts a fight. It would be consistent with M being grabbed, and asking why Z was following him, with Z asking what M was doing in the area. It would also be consistent with Z wanting to bring about justice and have a criminal in captivity when the police arrived. How could M carry on a conversation on the phone and be yelling and swinging at the same time? The witness did not mention that, in fact when M said Z was back in view, she told him to run again, instead the phone was dropped and all she could hear were the two questions, not M yelling.

If Z was right and M was coming out swinging, then what do we do with the other witness who heard someone other than M ask what M was doing around here? At first I held that it was possible for M to strike first, but after going over the facts many times, that just is not possible unless there are many more points added unable to be backed up with the facts we do know.

All of that has little to do with any one claiming Z was racist. We did hear Z say, "They always get away". That could mean people of that color, or it could mean people who may have been burglarizing the area recently. IMO, Z wanted to get answers from M, and when he tried, it went wrong. There is not one shred of evidence that M was waiting for Z. M seemed to be in no hurry to get home that night and it had very little to do with Z. Unless:

M had been involved in the burglaries and he had some suspicion that Z was still looking for suspects. People do tend to like conspiracy theories, and that could be why he had been talking to his friend on the phone for 22 minutes.

 

[JollyRoger]

I don't think Zimmerman broke his own nose or pounded his own head on the pavement. Do you?

That still doesn't establish who started the physical altercation, just who was losing it before the homicide.

He was, however, attacked and the evidence does point to Martin being on top of him at the time the shot was fired.

He might have been attacked or he might have been the attacker.

 

[Gucumatz]

Has anyone heard Anderson Cooper's interview with one of the Jurors? She was completely convinced by the Defense's case. I am surprised she was ever agreed on by the Prosecution as a Juror and her interview was a testament to the malfeasance of the prosecution's ability and to their client.

========
Under Florida Law, Zimmerman should have been acquitted and he was.

Given competent prosecutors or incompetent defense lawyers however the result could have potentially changed, but I wouldn't have put high odds on it.

Zimmerman under Florida law had a right to not disengage and utilize all of his options once he was being beaten by Trayvon, unfortunate as the tragedy was - The statutes, a good lawyer in O'Mara, lack of evidence, and a terrible prosecution is the reason for his acquittal

 

[Patroklos]

The prosecution was also the one to disqualify the only potentially black juror. Jolly pointed out somewhere that witnesses are highly unpredictable, in comparison jurors are a crap shoot.

 

[Berzerker]

There is even strong evidence that he may have only been punched in the face once based on the abrasions on Martins hands and his actual injuries. He certainly wasn't repeatedly beaten in the face as he lied in his statements to the police.

What was M doing on top for 30 secs, reading him a bed time story? The witness you want jailed said M looked like a MMA fighter raining blows down on Z. But you wanna quibble over Z's perception as if he was an accountant keeping tally on a scoreboard.

Much of the time they were apparently rolling around, sometimes with Martin on top and other times when Zimmerman was. After all, Zimmerman outweighed him by 40 pounds and had He should have been able to deal with Martin until the police arrived without shooting him.

And you have evidence Zimmerman was doing a bang up job in the fight?

Then there are the discrepancies in his testimony regarding where Martin was located in relation to his gun, and how completely inconceivable it was to suggest that Zimmerman could have grabbed it when he did, much less that Martin was trying to do so, just as it was equally inconceivable Martin would have even been able to see it being underneath Zimmerman inside his pants and behind Martin. It is far more plausible that the gun was out long before, and that Martin was literally fighting for his own life knowing that Zimmerman was trying to shoot him.

So Z had his gun out before picking a fight but didn't actually use for almost a minute while Martin was pounding his head? Form, if you straddle someone for 30 secs and they had a gun on their right hip, you'd feel it with your left leg and then you'd look to see what it was.

The other possibility is as the prosecution suggested. That Martin was actually getting up from on top of Zimmerman when he finally had the opportunity to reach his gun and shoot him at point blank range directly through the heart.

The gun would have been further from his chest and clothing and the angle would be different.

One thing is certain. The gun didn't magically appear in his hand from his holster underneath him while he was on the ground with Martin's knees pressing into his armpits as he claimed.

Where'd he say that? Quote him, no more BS.

That was Zimmerman's account. Something about M coming out of the shadows, yelling at him.

Martin's "account" was him asking Z why are you following me, hardly a question that starts a fight.

It'll start a fight if the person asking it is angry for some reason. But the response shouldn't have started a fight either.

It would be consistent with M being grabbed, and asking why Z was following him, with Z asking what M was doing in the area. It would also be consistent with Z wanting to bring about justice and have a criminal in captivity when the police arrived. How could M carry on a conversation on the phone and be yelling and swinging at the same time? The witness did not mention that, in fact when M said Z was back in view, she told him to run again, instead the phone was dropped and all she could hear were the two questions, not M yelling.

Z didn't know where M was, remember? He lost sight of him when M turned south at the T while Z was back at his truck. Z never saw him until M came out of hiding. According to the girl, it was M who saw the cracka and it was M who started the confrontation.

There's that creepy ass cracka

Why are you following me?

That was M

If Z was right and M was coming out swinging, then what do we do with the other witness who heard someone other than M ask what M was doing around here?

Z didn't say he came out swinging, he said M came from his back left and asked why he was following him. Z asked what he was doing around here and M asked if he had a problem - no - you do now. The girl heard the first 2 questions in that exchange, so she corroborates Z up to that point.

All of that has little to do with any one claiming Z was racist. We did hear Z say, "They always get away". That could mean people of that color, or it could mean people who may have been burglarizing the area recently.

Z's neighbor was a black woman who testified in his defense. Do you think Z was talking about her or somebody he thought was a burglary suspect?

 

[Antilogic]

Has anyone heard Anderson Cooper's interview with one of the Jurors? She was completely convinced by the Defense's case. I am surprised she was ever agreed on by the Prosecution as a Juror and her interview was a testament to the malfeasance of the prosecution's ability and to their client.

========
Under Florida Law, Zimmerman should have been acquitted and he was.

Given competent prosecutors or incompetent defense lawyers however the result could have potentially changed, but I wouldn't have put high odds on it.

Zimmerman under Florida law had a right to not disengage and utilize all of his options once he was being beaten by Trayvon, unfortunate as the tragedy was - The statutes, a good lawyer in O'Mara, lack of evidence, and a terrible prosecution is the reason for his acquittal

Watched it on the treadmill last night. Utterly shocking interview.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I called it long ago when the judge started going out of her way to find people who don't even watch the news or read the newspaper. Juror B37 goes far beyond that as i detailed in this post this morning.

 

[timtofly]

What was M doing on top for 30 secs, reading him a bed time story? The witness you want jailed said M looked like a MMA fighter raining blows down on Z. But you wanna quibble over Z's perception as if he was an accountant keeping tally on a scoreboard.

And you have evidence Zimmerman was doing a bang up job in the fight?

So Z had his gun out before picking a fight but didn't actually use for almost a minute while Martin was pounding his head? Form, if you straddle someone for 30 secs and they had a gun on their right hip, you'd feel it with your left leg and then you'd look to see what it was.

The gun would have been further from his chest and clothing and the angle would be different.

Where'd he say that? Quote him, no more BS.

It'll start a fight if the person asking it is angry for some reason. But the response shouldn't have started a fight either.

Z didn't know where M was, remember? He lost sight of him when M turned south at the T while Z was back at his truck. Z never saw him until M came out of hiding. According to the girl, it was M who saw the cracka and it was M who started the confrontation.

There's that creepy *** cracka

Why are you following me?

That was M

Z didn't say he came out swinging, he said M came from his back left and asked why he was following him. Z asked what he was doing around here and M asked if he had a problem - no - you do now. The girl heard the first 2 questions in that exchange, so she corroborates Z up to that point.

Z's neighbor was a black woman who testified in his defense. Do you think Z was talking about her or somebody he thought was a burglary suspect?

Perhaps wiki is not the best source of info, but the quoted sources that appear there, seem to indicate that a lot of Z's story did not match up. It seemed that the further away from the actual event the more aggressive Martin got. That may just be me though.

 

[Formaldehyde]

No. It isn't "just you". Even the night of the slaying, the investigating officer clearly didn't believe Zimmerman. And his blatant lies regarding what supposedly occurred just kept getting worse and more contradictory with his previous statements as he continued to embellish and exaggerate what occurred. It is amazing that anybody still thinks he has any credibility at all, much less a senior police detective on the witness stand under oath.

What is even more amazing is that Berzerker's fictional account of what occurred that night even disagrees with Zimmerman's own lies. He clearly stated during the police walk-through that Martin approached from the south along the sidewalk while he was standing at the T. That he saw Martin do so instead of having his back towards him. But even that turned out to be another lie based on witness testimony. Zimmerman apparently chased after Martin south down the walkway so he didn't "always get away". Otherwise the witness wouldn't have seen them struggling upright where Martin's body was found not long before the shot.

But I can certainly see why Berzerker is so confused by trying to patch together all the clearly bogus accounts that Zimmerman has given.

 

[Chiteng]

Let me lay out my cards here: I'm having a really hard time seeing the other side of this case. I can see the other side, legally, as it's been decided; I cannot see why people actually think GZ is completely innocent. Without a clear answer, a very convenient answer is that a lot of the antipathy towards Trayvon Martin is latent bias / people fearing being 'railroaded' like GZ was. I don't want to think this is the case, so I need to understand where you all are coming from.

Before we continue, I want to outline the format of this thread. This is not to be a debate. It's question and answer. I'm not interested in convincing anyone, on either side, they're wrong. There are other threads for that. Rather, I want to know why people think whatever. If you disagree with something someone has said, please be civil.

Do not limit answers to evidence that was presented at trial. This is your opinion and opinions don't meet the same standard as reasonable doubt.

So I'd like to start with a few questions:

1: Do you think what happened between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was a tragedy?

2: Do you think GZ did anything wrong?

3: Do you think Trayvon did anything wrong?

4: Do you think there has been a lot (not minor outliers) of racially tinged language used in defense of GZ?

5: Why do you think people are disappointed by the verdict?

Sorry but I dont care at all.
The drama was boring last year.
People who are starving should address that need.
Not media hype

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It should be noted that Zimmerman was cleared by virtue of lack of evidence NOT affirmation of what truly occurred that night. It is just as unfair to say that Martin attacked Zimmerman as it is for others to say that Zimmerman murdered Martin because he's racist. Neither side of the story is proven. Neither side is officially guilty of a crime.

The only sensible way to look at it.

 

[Traitorfish]

Yeah, I'm thinking this is where the US could do with a Scots-style "Not Proven" verdict for cases like this, make it a bit clearer what the verdict actually means.

 

[timtofly]

No. It isn't "just you". Even the night of the slaying, the investigating officer clearly didn't believe Zimmerman. And his blatant lies regarding what supposedly occurred just kept getting worse and more contradictory with his previous statements as he continued to embellish and exaggerate what occurred. It is amazing that anybody still thinks he has any credibility at all, much less a senior police detective on the witness stand under oath.

What is even more amazing is that Berzerker's fictional account of what occurred that night even disagrees with Zimmerman's own lies. He clearly stated during the police walk-through that Martin approached from the south along the sidewalk while he was standing at the T. That he saw Martin do so instead of having his back towards him. But even that turned out to be another lie based on witness testimony. Zimmerman apparently chased after Martin south down the walkway so he didn't "always get away". Otherwise the witness wouldn't have seen them struggling upright where Martin's body was found not long before the shot.

But I can certainly see why Berzerker is so confused by trying to patch together all the clearly bogus accounts that Zimmerman has given.

To be honest I never watched Z's walk through till just now. I am even more convinced that people do believe Z more than facts presented. I think that I would change my mind, if his walk through was the only thing I had to go by, after hearing the actual call to the dispatch. I think that it is quite clear, that I have given Z every benefit of the doubt, until I did listen to the 911 call over and over. If we try to justify the call with what Z claims, that is using speculation to justify facts. One should use the call as a fact, and then weed out Z's speculations that were formed after he has had time to "get his facts straight". I doubt he will ever justify or admit what actually happened that night. He was at least unconscious of events for 30 seconds, but seemed to miraculously recover.

 

[JohnRM]

Yeah, I'm thinking this is where the US could do with a Scots-style "Not Proven" verdict for cases like this, make it a bit clearer what the verdict actually means.

And I think that this is where a lot of the anger comes from, in the United States, right now. A lot of people think a not-guilty verdict for Zimmerman is a guilty verdict for Trayvon Martin.

 

[timtofly]

Is that the same as M self sacrificed himself?

 

[JohnRM]

Martin may be as much responsible for his own death as a person whose vehicle slides on a patch of black ice and runs into a tree. Sometimes, there is nobody to blame. Sometimes, terrible things just happen. Zimmerman may have been justified in being suspicious and Martin may have been justified in feeling threatened. It is possible that the two came into contact without either intending to. It is possible that Martin felt he had no other choice than to attack. Perhaps, Zimmerman made a threatening move. When people act out of fear, whether justifiable or not, terrible things can and do happen. I don't see why everyone thinks that one or the other must be in the wrong.