Racism

[warpus]

What? Minorities want to live in poorer parts of town because they commit more crimes and so are down with that? Did I really just read that?

 

[red_elk]

As far as university admittance goes, thanks to affirmative action, it's actually easier to get into university for minority students (unless that student is Asian, in which case it's actually harder). As for the cost of university, it would seem like white students have about as much debt as minority students have when measured upon graduation [5].

Ok, so assuming IQ discrepancy (on average) between blacks and whites exists, what is the reason of it in your opinion?
Sounds like this is the main issue and fixing this discrepancy would solve the problem of discrimination.

 

[Hehehe]

What? Minorities want to live in poorer parts of town because they commit more crimes and so are down with that? Did I really just read that?

No, but they end up there because they have a lower socio-economic status. Btw there are also middle class neighborhoods comprised entirely of minorities too

 

[Hehehe]

Ok, so assuming IQ discrepancy between blacks and whites exists, what is the reason of it in your opinion?
Sounds like this is the main issue and fixing this discrepancy would solve the problem of discrimination.

The reason, in my opinion, is mostly genetics, and we're still 5-20 years away from being able to fix it (IVF selection is almost a reality, and CRISPR will be soon enough).

 

[warpus]

Your plan to end racial segregation in America is.. eugenics?

 

[red_elk]

The reason, in my opinion, is mostly genetics, and we're still 5-20 years away from being able to fix it (IVF selection is almost a reality, and CRISPR will be soon enough).

That's... quite old-fashioned views, TBH.
There are enough cultural and social explanations for these differences, in my opinion. In particular, in the USA black slavery and relatively recent institutionalized racism can explain lower living standards for blacks. And immigration of Asian high-skilled workers and scientists can explain their high average IQ without involving biology and genetics.

 

[warpus]

IQ isn't a very accurate indicator of intelligence either

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Your plan to end racial segregation in America is.. eugenics?

You say this as if you are surprised. While I do sort of admire the patience that you and @red_elk are displaying here, I can't relate to why you are pandering to this rather than just acknowledging what you are dealing with and refusing to give it the time of day.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Moderator Action: OK, the discussion of race vs IQ will stop now. Scientific racism isn't allowed on CFC, just as blatant racism isn't. If you wish to discuss this kind of thing, do it in PM, or do it elsewhere.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Akka]

To me it looks like he's replying to another member who was supporting another poster who's denying institutional racism exists, and who doesn't understand how even if you have what you think are "equal" laws, your laws are still totally subject to human beings who give leeway to preferred classes (ie white men)

Please explain me how :

but because of socioeconomic reasons tied to "races" that law ends up producing unequal outcomes

implies a lack of understanding of what you describe.
Did you actually read what was written ?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Please explain me how :

but because of socioeconomic reasons tied to "races" that law ends up producing unequal outcomes

implies a lack of understanding of what you describe.

Because it implies that the socioeconomic reasons are the only reasons, and therefore if the socioeconomic reasons can be successfully addressed the entire problem will be resolved. That isn't true in the US. Law enforcement does contain individual racists, and that does contribute to the outcome as well. The jury pool does contain individual racists, and that also does contribute to the outcome. And most importantly the elected officials who legislate the laws that produce the outcomes are influenced by the fact that about 25% of the electorate consists of people who are happy with the unequal outcomes that are being produced.

 

[Cutlass]

At the time it was true. But the founding fathers were learned men. The pretense that their opinions would remain frozen in time through centuries of developments in the simplest sciences so that their position would match the most ignorant available today is such a mind boggling leap that I really was surprised to hear it actually given voice.

Jefferson himself said that. And the irony being that he is one of the FFs most likely to be held as infallible for all posterity.

Jefferson wrote: “Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it, and labored with it. It deserved well of its country.”

You can see Jefferson’s quill pen beginning to drip with disenchantment.

“I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects.”

Although a “strict constructionist,” Jefferson got it right. The trouble today is, some imperfections are far from moderate. Which he seemed to see coming.

“Laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.”

https://www.denverpost.com/2016/01/...om-thomas-jefferson-on-constitutional-change/

Maybe it would be beneficial if you, as a nation, stopped falling back on what some dudes thought 250 years ago every time you have to make a decision about how to live your lives.

Most of us are more than willing to do that. But the conservatives find too much to like in the primitive notions of our knuckle-dragging ancestors.

 

[brennan]

Is affirmative action discriminatory and patronising? Yes to both.

Otoh, Nationalism is on the rise and that means an unhealthy rise in outright racism is more or less inevitable. Back to the 1930's...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Is affirmative action discriminatory and patronising? Yes to both.

While this may be true, affirmative action is still a path to a more equitable outcome than inaction will reach.

 

[brennan]

While this may be true, there are other alternatives that do not involve institutionalising discrimination.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

While this may be true, there are other alternatives that do not involve institutionalising discrimination.

Such as?

We are confronted by epic inequalities that were produced through generations of discriminatory practices. Any effort to counteract those unequal starting conditions for the current generation will require counter practices that are in fact discriminatory. You say otherwise.

I don't really see any such "clean" alternatives, but as you apparently do please do share.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Your plan to end racial segregation in America is.. eugenics?

Khan Noonien Singh Approves this method!

 

[Hehehe]

Your plan to end racial segregation in America is.. eugenics?

Well, it could achieve what half a century worth of well-intentioned, if misguided, efforts at social policy have failed to produce.

That's... quite old-fashioned views, TBH.
There are enough cultural and social explanations for these differences, in my opinion. In particular, in the USA black slavery and relatively recent institutionalized racism can explain lower living standards for blacks. And immigration of Asian high-skilled workers and scientists can explain their high average IQ without involving biology and genetics.

IQ isn't a very accurate indicator of intelligence either

It seems like this kind of discussion is not welcome in this thread. Perhaps we could take it to the thread "Discussion on IQ"?

You say this as if you are surprised. While I do sort of admire the patience that you and @red_elk are displaying here, I can't relate to why you are pandering to this rather than just acknowledging what you are dealing with and refusing to give it the time of day.

Surely, whatever our differences may be, we can still talk about them like civilized adults?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Surely, whatever our differences may be, we can still talk about them like civilized adults?

The implication there is that racism is civilized. That's exactly the pandering that I was opposing.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Of course, just like physical differences between ethnical groups, there are intellectual ones. You won’t survive in Bushman desert long and happy, because you’re too stupid and fat for that. Measuring your math mind with the upper class scheme called IQ won’t help there.

Moderator Action: What did I say about race and IQ in this thread? --LM