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Random Little Questions

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by Corlis, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Magic is a bending of the laws of the physical. At one time intended to be the providence of the divine Ceridwen broke that and taught Kylorin how to practice magic. Much like the story of Prometheus though Cerdiwen may have let the cat out of the bag she has little control over it now. Men know how to bend the rules, the gods dominions aren't 100%. Law magic can be used for evil because the caster wants it too, Junil doesnt have the ability to approve requests. Thats the way priest cast, they request effects that the gods approve or not, mages force it themselves.

    Its also worth noting that although Kylorin was the first archmage, he wasnt the first person to use magic. There was extremly limited use of magic by humans even into the Age of Dragons, but these were very basic almost shamanistic abilities. Nothing major or controlled until Kylorin.

    Since everything is created from these 21 dominions bending the laws of each also falls into these same categories. Typically unbalancing the situation by driving an aspect into it to acheive a certain result. Want ot get rid of a fire? Channel some water energy into the area. We have the physical effect of water on fire, but more importantly we have the asepcts at work. Fire is chaotic explosive energy and pasion. Water is serene, temperence and calm. Channeling enough water energy in will destroy the fire.

    Thats the theory at least. Its kinda an asian take on magic ("everything has a spirit, these spirits embody the emotion of the pysical, the physical embodies the emotion fo the spirit"). A little weird and far out compared to your typical D&D magic system, but my players liekd to get into philosophical conversations with just about everyone so I needed a cosmology that took everything into account. Plus I had great fun thinking about what a spirit specialist would be like, or a dwarven spirit specialist, or an evil insane dwarven spirit specialist. Because the magic system had an ideology it made roleplaying more interesting.

    The three brothers. They were a significant backstory that involved a lot of powerful players in the parties world way before the party was dealing with things at that level. I never liked that the most interesting thing in a country always seemed to involved the player. So at all levels people were always busy dealing with things that were appropriate for thier station. I didnt want PC's running off to warn the king that someone was going to assassinate the city priest, if they tried they werent given audience because the king had more important things to deal with. If they dug they foudn out that a neighboring countries army has just been destroyed by a king claiming to be a god and flood of tornadoes he sent against the army. They were still picking up body parts, armor and weapons that were scattered for hundreds of miles along the border.

    Faced with that the players would be forced to admit that maybe the king did have pressing things to deal with and maybe their particular interest of the moment wasnt the only thing happening. I ran a pretty open game too so often the players would pick up on these odd stories and decide to go check them out directly.

    Let me ask you guys a question. There is only 1 true heaven and precious few things in creation that came from it. 21 gods (one of which is chained beneath Galveholm) all came from the true heaven, what else?
     
  2. Atnanor

    Atnanor +2 Beer Affinity

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    Uhh... the power of creation?
     
  3. Atnanor

    Atnanor +2 Beer Affinity

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    Ah hah! of course its referring to Agares.
     
  4. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I don't think we know where the gems are. I'm guessing that their power was probably very hard to control, and so those using them may have accidentally killed themselves. The gods may have intervened to punish the brothers and take the gems back, but I think that death magic is evidence that the Opalus Mortis at least remains here.


    It is a little unclear how they came to be. It is usually thought that Agares made them and the Infinite Planes of Raw Elements before he (openly) fell, but there are some references that make me wonder if perhaps they were created by The One and merely stolen by Agares. Namely, Sheut Stones are thought to be Agares failed attempts to create gems of creations, and in his conversation with Sucellus said that he stole them from the True Heaven and hid them from The One.



    Magic is choas, the power to bend the world around you to take on the shape of your will. It come not from Ceridwen (the evil Goddess of the Stars/Dimensional magic/sorcery/pain and suffering), but from the Divine Spark--the soul that mortal possess because they are descendants of the god Nemed. Ceridwen merely taught Kyorlin how to use this innate power, nowing he would use it to destroy himself and Creation. This is something that The One gave to the Gods/Angels, which also grants intelligence and free will. The Gods/Angels can mimic some of these abilities int heir creations, but not create the divine spark. In the case of the gods/angels, their own spheres are so dominant that the free will their divine spark allows is overpowered, but humanity was created with every element in perfect balance so our free will is greater than the gods'.


    I believe that magic must have actual mana or "physical" elements to channel in order to do any good. There is only a certain amount of mana on each plane. Erebus was created with a balanced, finite amount of mana from all types. This can be used up, or at least drawn in by so many scattered sources that it becomes impossible to harness. Humans lack the ability to draw mana from outside of the plane they are on, but this is not true of the Gods. The only infinite supplies of elements/mana are found in the infinite planes that can be accessed only though the gems of creation, but the gods have a massive amount held in reserve in their own vaults, and/or their own beings. Much of this was created before the power of creation was taken away, but more was probably taken from the infinite planes. I think Agares made the power of these gems available to all the gods, even the Good ones. Even though good gods using this power against him in the war, I expect that he thinks it will also spread the taint of rebellion to them.

    I don't know how the Three Brothers managed to get the gems. Agares himself was insulted with the idea that he was involved in any way, and in this case I'm somewhat inclined to agree. I suspect that Ceridwen may have been involved. Giving extreme power to a small number of men to corrupt them and watch them destroy the world and themselves just seems like her.

    I'm thinking the story should be that soon after the signing of the compact that the Three Brothers somehow got her help attaining the gems, and used this power to become the first real conquerors of their fellow man. Naturally, the power corrupted them and they soon turned against each other in wars almost as bad as the Godswar. I suspect that they had trouble controlling their own powers though, so they may have killed themselves as opposed to each other. They may have also regretted this and tried to destroy or hide the gems from everyone. It seems reasonable that the power of the gems would have an influence similar to a god's precept on him, which could overcome a mere mortal and rive him completely insane, leading to the inability to resist suicide (influence of death), jumping of cliffs (influence of Air), and withdrawing entirely into ones self (water). Finner (the man to whom the Godslayer was given, who was considered the greatest hero of the age) may have helped defeat them too, possibly using the godslayer (maybe he decided they must all be taken out at once so as not to give one an advantage, and that part not not all of the power of the godslayer was needed against each god-like mortal, so he broke it into 3 pieces, which later had to be reassembled to defeat a real god? I'm totally making this up as I go along, but why else would the godslayer how been broken in 3? Well? don't have an answer do you? I didn't think so.). Regardless, Kyorlin (maybe a son of Finner?) stepped into the power vacuum left from the fall of these great empires and managed to unite their remnant into one to form Patria. He was a very good ruler (at first) at first, but almost anyone would have seemed infinitely better than the Three Kings. Naturally, Ceridwen wouldn't like this so she would do all she could to cause Eve's infidelity and then corrupt Kyorlin with power just as she had his predecessors.


    Of course, this is almost certainly wrong; we know that Arawn withdrew entirely from creation to prevent the wicked Patrian Mages from using his Life and especially[/I Death magic, and that death magic returned when Tuoni introduced the Opalus Mortis to Creation. Thus, my timeline cannot be right. Come to think of it, I think the History used to mention the gems of life being stolen in the Age if Rebirth, but that is gone now. Maybe Kael just couldn't think of where to put it, so took it out of the cannon.
     
  5. orangelex44

    orangelex44 Partisan

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    Hmmm.... That's tricky. I'm assuming you mean the stuff created by the Luonnotar (or whatever his name is, I forget right now)? As you mention, he created the original god/angels and IIRC he gave them access to raw materials to continue creation in his stead. I believe that he had some physical means if doing that. Other than that stuff, I don't know... but I think the Lore Compendium says a little more, I have to download and check it tonight.
     
  6. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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    Hrm... did The One bring the rock he stood on from Heaven? Thus the Altar of Luonnotar would be the answer. Or maybe he shed some skin flakes while he was standing there :ninja:

    Damnit, in the Great People thread we placed Tuoni as a female dwarf with a habit of yodeling.... I changed it to male since it is "the three brothers," but am inclined to leave the quote because it is just plain funny :p

    Tuoni the Gatekeeper - Male/Dwarven - Khazad - Known Facts: Opalus Mortis (the gem of death) is lodged in his Right Hand, all Death magic in the world channels through this gem.
    • ...from the time the Khazad ventured to the surface, Tuoni the Gatekeeper has bombarded passerby for miles around with enthusiastic yodeling, ostensibly to guide travelers and merchants to the Underhome. I sometimes wonder if it's actually to keep them away. --Nosamonce, Memoirs
     
  7. Corlis

    Corlis Chieftain

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    Something else I was curious about: Camulos was previously the god of Peace, but after his fall he became the god of War and Chaos. The War part is obviously new, being a perversion of Peace, but is the Chaos a new thing too? Since Chaos is the natural counterpart to Junil's Law you'd figure that he represented it before as well, but Chaos doesn't usually seem terribly peaceful to me. Maybe he represented a kind of laisse-faire Chaos, where nobody tried to dictate rules to other people, but instead let everyone else do as they pleased?
     
  8. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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    Chaos is quite a natural state. Everything tends toward it. And Chaotic Systems are some of the most beautiful things you can ever see (stare into a fire sometime). I can fairly easily see Chaos as being symbolic of Peace (just go with the flow of the universe man)
     
  9. evanb

    evanb Chieftain

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    Hail Eris :D
     
  10. orangelex44

    orangelex44 Partisan

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    That's an interesting statement. It brings up a side discussion as to the differences between Chaos and Entropy, because I would rather say that everything tends toward Entropy than Chaos, by the "real world's" physical laws, at least.

    The odd thing is, Entropy is actually a very ordered state, a uniform distribution of energy. Hence, there is a logical argument that little things like planets, life, and everything humans consider meaningful are actually chaotic parts of a natural entropic state. An argument could be made (counter to basically every fantasy pantheon ever created) that Chaos is a Good thing. Don-t get me wrong - humans are very ordered beings that thrive in ordered environments - but their order, technically, is an unnatural one, is you define unnatural as "not what it should be". Therefore, even this order is chaotic in the grand scheme of things.

    As to Camulos's other calling, conflict (which you may or may not want to distinguish from War) is a very natural and important part of life. There is the biological part of it (Darwin, who you may or may not believe) but even ignoring that topic, on a sociopolitical scale conflict is a HUGE creative force. If you look at, say, inventions through history, especially the last century, it becomes obvious that many more innovations were caused from war than peace. The general trend is that something is innovated in a war, then refined in peace - meaning that many more "inventions" come from peacetime but their origins are traced to war. Examples include computers, anything nuclear, planes (without WWI, they'd never have been mass-produced), and high-tech materials (the Cold War drove material science to scary levels).

    On a political scale, nearly every new political template (e.g., democracy, socialism, etc.) is first established from a war against a preexisting one. Again, in recent history the "new" governments of democracy, socialism, and facism have all emerged from conflict - specifically, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution/Civil War, and Hitler's... ummm... "actions" in his rise to power (domestic crackdowns and disappearences, annexations, proxy war in Spain). Ive digressed from my digression, though. The point is that all these new things are the result of conflict - and without conflict probably would not have arose at all.

    Now, this entire little mental soliloquy may not be pertinent to anything, but I consider it to be important in that some of the "Evil" gods' spheres are necessary for "Good" things to happen. I always thought that Chaos, especially, was more of a good thing than a bad thing - or neutral, at worst.
     
  11. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Bhall and Camulos are close on the chaos aspect. But where Bhall is the beautiful passion of chaos (like Xienwolf was describing) Camulos is chaos without passion, chaos without reason. Tali is also a god of chaos, but he is chaos without malice.

    Bhall is a group of farmers raising up together in a violent mob to go torch the house of someone they suspect of being a witch. Camulos is a group of pyromaniacs going around settings houses on fire just to see them burn. Tali is a group of men settings off to paint a random building red, but they get distracted, paint a bull and twelve geese red then spend the night taking care of the geese because they cant fly anymore with paint on them, and then they cook and eat 2 of the geese when they get hungry, paint each other red and wander back into the city the next morning red and covered in goose feathers.

    Camulos could be better called the god of anarchy or strife, his fall robbed the world of the chance of peace. Though Sirona may try to cool tempers and soothe wounds, Camulos was the true agent of protection from war, and that is gone. His minions are the most likely to fight with other and his hell is a massive eternal battlefield where souls become so ingrained in warfare that killing not only loses all meaning to them, but becomes enjoyable.
     
  12. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Chieftain

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    :lol:
    If I ever end up in Erebus, I know who I'm going to be praying to.
    On a side note, IIRC, Chaos, as well as being my present favorite mana, is the only mana type you get from Necromancy that can't be banned by the Overcouncil...
     
  13. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    So Tali is the god of drunks and Frat boys?
    Edit: And Ron James?
     
  14. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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    Important but subtle distinction in verbage here.

    I said "everything tends toward" Chaos, not "everything devolves into" Entropic States.


    Chaos is simple something which is VERY dependant on initial conditions, so much that a small change in the initial state makes an unpredictably large change in the final state. Real life situations are swarmed with Chaos because it is hard to isolate anything from all surrounding effects. And anything left alone for long enough becomes further and further from the initial state, so more sensitive to what that state was (like being able to tell precisely which one of your fingers was dirtiest by looking at a peach you put in the fridge before going on a 2 month vacation).
     
  15. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 Chieftain

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    Er...hope? Knowledge of something better? Um...that's all I got :p
     
  16. Atnanor

    Atnanor +2 Beer Affinity

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    I think I was right when I said the Gems.
     
  17. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

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    the altar of the luonnatare. it's the place where the one stood before leaving creation.
     
  18. orangelex44

    orangelex44 Partisan

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    Did the orb of Temporance come out of heaven?

    Plus, Os-Gabella may have once been there, I'm not sure.
     
  19. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Sorry, the question had been answered correctly but I never chimed back in. The gods and the gems are the only thing that came from heaven. The Altar of the Luonnotar was where the one stood when he came into creation, but it was never in heaven itself. Gabella was never in heaven. Temporence was always in heaven, and still is.

    Btw, Temporence got added to the mythology early on. I always hated time travel sort of stuff in D&D games and I wanted to set a hard limit early on that their at least one thing that the gods themselves were subject to. Time was immutable and the seconds ticked by regardless of their actions. Though I doled out dominion of other parts of the world control over time was lost to them. That is why those few lines are in the sotry and even though it has absolutly no relevance to the Civ4 game (you can argue that the save game ability negates it) it is retained from the D&D days and I like that it shows that the gods arent omnipotent.
     
  20. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

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    Maybe we should edit that.
     

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